Neverwinter Hate

Truthfully, I have other problems with this game's internet requirement. That bloody patcher seems to be nothing but trouble for modem users. For one thing, it detects all current patches as one, single patch and downloads them all (All the ones you don't have yet). If you didn't have the game from the get-go, that's a 45 meg download that has to be done in ONE shot. Moreover, modem connections not being the MOST reliable, there's no guarantee of getting a good patch even if you DO manage to get the right number of bytes downloaded.

The fact that they do a real good job of obfuscating the place to download incremental patches for you to install yourself doesn't help. Sure, if you're determined to find them you can, but most people I know don't have that kind of paitence with computers.
 

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Lily Inverse said:
Truthfully, I have other problems with this game's internet requirement. That bloody patcher seems to be nothing but trouble for modem users. For one thing, it detects all current patches as one, single patch and downloads them all (All the ones you don't have yet). If you didn't have the game from the get-go, that's a 45 meg download that has to be done in ONE shot. Moreover, modem connections not being the MOST reliable, there's no guarantee of getting a good patch even if you DO manage to get the right number of bytes downloaded.

I'm pretty sure this isn't correct. It might be if you don't have any patches applied (although I think the download is only about 4.5 meg, not 45) but certainly when I just updated with the latest patch (1.2) it only downloaded that patch and no others.

As to my thoughts on the game. I'd agree that the single player game is somewhat flawed, but I have yet to see a rpg with a resonable plot or script, or one that didn't try to railroad you into following a certain path (Dungeon Siege was a terrible game for plot, utterly mindless hack and slash if that sort of thing appeals to you and you were limited to a single path through the game (well the single player anyway, multiplayer was better, but again with a really stupid plot). BGII has propably the best story in a RPG game I've played, I really did enjoy that, I can't say the same about the NWN story.

However, NWN has a lot of potential, both as a multi-player game (which I don't really care for much), and the toolset which can be used to create you own modules (something I am quite enjoying at the moment). It is fairly easy to use, and even the scripting isn't hard to pick up (although I did have my brother give me a hand there :) For someone who enjoys creating worlds, designing adventures, etc NWN is well worth the price (even at the $100 I had to pay here in Australia). The tileset is a little limited at the moment, but already there are some custom tilesets appearing on the net and I image there will be an expansion pack somewhere in the future with more tilesets, monsters, etc. Even the current limitations can be worked around, and with a few added visual effects and encounters you can create a really neat looking map.
 

Henry said:
Doc Klueless:

And not to mean this in an insulting way, but even with the circumstances you described, I found it humerously ironic that this criticism was made on an internet message board. :D

Oh, you don't have to worry. I'm not insulted easily. :D

I have not real problem downloading patches from the internet. I just don't like doing it. My main concern is for those who don't have an internet connection, have a slow internet connection (<56K which is quite possible. Phonelines someplaces are horrendous. Before I got cable modem at my old place, the best I could do dial-up was 24.4), have to pay a per-minute charge to make phonecalls (even if local), or don't have a clue how to do more than surf or use email (my mother is a good example of this.) While the patches to NWN aren't very big, other games can have HUGE patches. That's just icky.

Back before I moved from SA, TX, I'd say about 10% of my friends/what-have-you didn't have internet access. Of that 90% that did, I'd say 50% of them are still clueless about the internet and what it can do for you.
 

I'm pretty sure this isn't correct. It might be if you don't have any patches applied
It IS true when you don't have any patches applied. I was referring mainly to modem users who waited a few weeks to get the game. This situation will only get worse as time goes on, too.

(although I think the download is only about 4.5 meg, not 45)
Nope. It said, and I wish I'd saved the actual transcript, "45.042 MB to download"


but certainly when I just updated with the latest patch (1.2) it only downloaded that patch and no others.
Well, yes. But even if you're right on the size now, it's only going to get nastier and nastier. In a few months I don't think the game will be even remotely patchable by modem users using YOUR figures.

Like I said, putting the patches in an easily accessible location on the web site would satisfy me on this point. I downloaded the monster file above four times via the patcher, and each time it was corrupt. I went to get it in the two pieces and applied the patch, and it went smoothly. After this, I will not have any further troubles. It's the late adopters who worry me.

Infogrames is ticking me off about a lot of points like this, actually. I know I've got an issue not covered by their "automated support" but for some reason I need to waste twenty minutes in long-distance phone calls (not cheap) to get to talk to a real, live person when I know the issue is going to take quite a long time to solve just by talking with them. This is just bad Customer Service.
 

Tsyr said:
Genuine First Person was an issue some people complained about with Dungeon Siege, but the same thing applies. You don't really want it, as the game is made right now. I'm sure Bioware could crank out a hack in 10 minutes to give you genuine FPP, but remember... there is no sky... there is not top to trees in the forest... there is no roof to caves...
Of course I really want it!! I want sky and treetops and forest! I *loved* flying and taking pot shots at land bound creatures whilst playing the later "Might and Magic" games (once I'd acquired the power of flying). The 3D engine had very little realism by today''s standards, but the flexibility for gameplay was awesome!

A very good point about sky, though, which makes me think that there will *never* be a FPP.

The fact that you are always "looking down at your feet" is actually a very clever approach to providing a consistent and easy approach to smooth 3D animation. This *hugely* reduces the amount of total possible floor coverage viewed, and hence guarantees you a minimal (at least manageable) polygon count for realistic 3D animation.

I've played with a tool called City OverSeer 3D, which lets you wander through a 3D world automatically generated from Campiagn Cartographer 2 files.
When I stand outside a city containing hundreds of buildings, and spin around on the spot, I get a very inconsistent animation rate. Basically, as I turn away from the city, I spin quite fast. As I spin the city into view, animation drops down to a couple of frames a second. This is because I can see an effectively huge floor space, and even a GeForce graphics card has trouble with the thousands and thousands of polygons that have to be processed. As I look at the city, I see the tops of hundreds of buildings, which can never happen in NWN.

Thinking back to what I know of 3D engine optimizations made of games like Doom, DoomII, and all those engines (massive amounts of pre-rendered calculations, requiring a *lot* of time to pre-process back at the factory, before the level is saved and ready to play), I should have expected this.

Bioware's approach was, unfortunately, definitely the best decision. Trying to get smart, and precalculate polygon optimization to support fully free camera movement (as with FPP), would make modules very slow to load (calculated as needed), or make them too large to distribute over the internet effectively for multi-player games (if compiled by the toolset).

Decisions not to support things like climbing and flying become more transparent. You really need to have everyone on the same level. There's a vague illusion of higher and lower ground when wandering around outside, but it's not really that real. I'd be pretty disappointed about being attacked from high above whilst I'm busy looking at my feet !! ;)

There are definitely ways to design module areas to minimise polygon count problems without massive pre-rendering calculations, but they would have made the toolset harder to work with and impose restrictions on layout.

It's the old argument of trade-offs. Bioware could have gone for true "6 degrees of freedom" flexibility, but they would have got caned by the gaming public for either the jerky animation, or for sacrificing graphics realism (love the way that tall grass waves in the wind!!!).
 

I have some questions which may be easy to answer... or impossible to realize:

How can I remove that silly take 20 thing for traps?

How can I customize races?

How can I build new feats or change existing ones?
 

Darklone said:
I have some questions which may be easy to answer... or impossible to realize:

How can I remove that silly take 20 thing for traps?

How can I customize races?

How can I build new feats or change existing ones?

Take 20 you might be able to override via scripting, putting something in the OnUnlock event. I haven't tried it, so I don't know.

Custom races and feats aren't possible yet, unfortunately. Basically, the process involves opening up some of the data files with a tool called a "bif extracter", and editting the appropriate files. You'd also have to edit the dialog.tlk file, which is messy.

All of this is moot however, because there's no way to get the options to show up. Also, everyone is holding off on releasing tools because nobody knows when BioWare will, and what they will release.

Modifying an existing feat may be possible though, it depends on what you want to do with it.
 

Learn how to read, that wasnt my comments but a review i agreed with. I also mentioned a patch had been put out.


LightPhoenix said:
First off, I'll agree that the single-player campaign isn't that great - I quickly became bored with it some way through Chapter 2.

Bugs happen, and they get corrected as soon as possible. Some are major (the toolset corrupting saved mods, the chapter 2 bug), some are not so major. I don't think they did as good a job on testing as they should have though.

Climbing, swimming, riding, et cetera aren't problems with the engine - it would have required a significant increase in the number of character models needed to be made - and would have delayed the game significantly longer. And while I'm sure someone will come along and say "I'd rather wait for an unbugged game", your waiting doesn't put food on the designer's tables. They put as in much as they could in the allotted time. But eventually the higher-ups said, alright, have it done by June, we're shipping then.

Dagger, what ever gave you the idea that the toolset wasn't supported by BioWare? Should I even mention the number of BioWare folk who post on the Custom Content, Scripting, and Toolset forums? Get your facts straight. BioWare has always been of the position that it would be the community that makes the game, and the single player campaign was only an example of what could be done.
 

Does it have voice support yet? I might be willing to go ahead and pick this up if it does since i got friends playing it.

I use my headphone/mic combo a lot already on a lot of other games but I'm not a big fan of Roger Wilco and the other one.

The Half Life is a good example of an excellent voice system.
 


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