D&D 4E New 4e DM in need of help!

[DaveyB]

Okay guys, here's the setup: I'm about 3/4 of the way through Raiders of Oakhurst Reloaded. My party is comprised of a dragonborn fighter, dragonborn paladin, dragonborn warlord (notice a pattern?), a halfling rogue/ranger, and an eladrin wizard. So far, none of the encounters have really been much of a challenege except perhaps for the skeletons in Belazamon's tomb and the chokers, thanks to the wizard wondering what was behind those rocks....

For instance, in the initial encounter at Stone Table when you go into the first area with the firepit, there are 4 kobold minions and ichi-ichi the skirmisher on lookout. How are 4 minions and a skirmisher a match for 5 1st-level PCs? I know more support shows up later provided ichi-ichi rings the gong (which he did), but even so, another 4 kobold minions, and another skirmisher and slinger don't hold up long against 5 PCs; or am I not running the monsters correctly?

I had the minions mob the PCs as per the adventure and they died immediately leaving ichi-ichi alone until help arrived with 4 more minions, who also went down just as quickly. Then the slinger and the skirmisher show up at which point I have the slinger throw a firepot while the skirmisher moved in. At most he gets 2 hits before being destroyed, and the slinger is mince-meat after him. Ditto for ichi-ichi.

It says in the DM guide that the skirmisher role is supposed to be able to dart in, deal damage, then get out quickly. I fail to see that on the kobold skirmisher. At most, he can move in, shift to get combat advantage (extra 1d6 damage), and then attack. After that, he's going to get dog-piled by the PCs. Even the Dragonshields and the Wyrmpriest were no match for the PCs. I must admit that I think I flubbed that one because I failed to see the one power where if anyone moves adjacent or shifts next to him he gets a reaction to hit them. Even after I finally noticed it though, they weren't much of a challenge. Perhaps I should've used the priest's incite faith power.

Anyway, my point being is that so far, 1st level characters seem to be able to mow through guys with little consequence. Second wind and healing surges almost make death a non-topic. Not that I'm trying to kill my PCs, but some type of challenge would be nice.

Also, does one battle constitute an encounter? If so, what's to stop players from fighting two fights, gaining a "milestone", and getting more action points thus allowing them to do even more per turn than they normally do? What, if anything, am I doing wrong??

 

[Nail]

Try the Wyrmpriest's Incite Faith power on the minions....suddenly they don't always go down in one hit.

 

[Nail]

How are 4 minions and a skirmisher a match for 5 1st-level PCs?[

They aren't. 4 minions = 1 regular monster. The encounter essentially has 2 level one monsters on 5 level 1 PCs. It's not meant to be a tough fight, apparently. (I don't have the module.)

I know more support shows up later provided ichi-ichi rings the gong (which he did), but even so, another 4 kobold minions, and another skirmisher and slinger don't hold up long against 5 PCs; or am I not running the monsters correctly?

You are playing it correctly. This encounter appears to be designed to be easy. Dunno why.

I had the minions mob the PCs as per the adventure and they died immediately leaving ichi-ichi alone until help arrived with 4 more minions, who also went down just as quickly.

The skirmisher is supposed to play of the minions, getting bonuses to hit because of his Mob Attack ability.

It says in the DM guide that the skirmisher role is supposed to be able to dart in, deal damage, then get out quickly. I fail to see that on the kobold skirmisher.

Yep.

With so few allies, the skirmisher won't be doing his job. I can only guess that such was the intentional design of the encounter. It's meant to be easy here, apparently.

 

[dervish]

Combat in 4th edition isn't supposed to pose any real risk to the PCs. At least not most of the time. Its purpose is simply to simulate risk so that the players can feel high and mighty when they defeat the oh-so-dangerous encounter.

While the numerical risk of the PCs failing in a battle is very low (I'd say as low as 2-3% of a PC dying), the complexity of combat and the nature of healing in the game make battles seem far more dangerous than they actually are. Even if you reduce the hit points of each monster by 25%, which is something I almost always do to increase combat speed, the "danger" element is still present.

I don't specifically know the encounter you're speaking of in your post, but I usually find "phased" fights with multiple waves of creatures to be a lot less challenging than when all enemies can act at the same time. By the rules, however, they give the same XP, though this is easily corrected with the magical DM wand of zero.

The sum of this all would be something like this: If the players feel challenged enough, but you don't think they are, then let things be as they are. If the players are bored about the no-risk scenario, then adjust the difficulty of encounters.

Oh, and about minions, I personally find them to be overpriced in terms of XP. An encounter where the enemies include minions is usually easier than an encounter with the same XP budget without minions.

 

[Sanzuo]

Yea, pretty much.

I've been DMing 4e weekly for a while now and I've definitely determined that the "balanced" encounters recommended in the books are easily conquered by solid group that knows what they're doing. Gone are the days of 2E AD&D where a character death per session was not unusual.

Add maybe a few extra mobs to the encounter. Or even a really menacing foe amidst the lesser ones.

Don't be afraid to make things tougher. In all likelihood your players will still succeed but they will be challenged a bit more. Also they will gain better experience rewards and they will like that.

 

[KarinsDad]

The starting setup from that module is a bit lame.

4 minions and 1 skirmisher = 2 1st level enemies

That's 200 XP. A super easy encounter.

After ringing the gong, 4 minions show up on round two and a skirmisher and slinger show up on round 3. Another 300 XP spread over 2 more rounds.

Finally, Varkaze shows up on round 4. 150 more XP.

A 650 XP encounter where every monster fights from the beginning is slightly challenging, but not overwhelming.

The fact that the encounter was broken in 4 consecutive rounds weakened the opposition a lot. It means that it was a lot easier than 650 XP worth. More like 450 XP.

Instead of 12 standard actions per round starting on round one, the opposition had less. Instead of something like 12, 9, 6, 4 in the first 4 rounds (650 XP worth), the NPCs had more like 5, 6, 5, 4. 20 actions in 4 rounds instead of 30+.

You might want to rely more on making up your own encounters based on the DMG XP guides than following a module word for word. Figure out the XP of the module encounters and if they are too weak, change them.

You did everything right. The module design is at fault here.

 

[ObsidianCrane]

Need to remember that most of Radiers was written before the books arrived as well, even the reloaded module.

 

[DaveyB]

After ringing the gong, 4 minions show up on round two and a skirmisher and slinger show up on round 3. Another 300 XP spread over 2 more rounds.

Finally, Varkaze shows up on round 4. 150 more XP.

Hmm..reloaded doesn't have Varkaze show up at all. It claims that a hobgoblin waits in the shadows by the pool and then disappears to warn the others.

I may have misunderstood that in thinking that they would hole up above and wait for the PCs to come to them, readying cover and what-not in preparation. I guess I may've flubbed that one.

You did everything right. The module design is at fault here.

Whew...okay, thought perhaps I was messing things up or doing something wrong. The more I thought about it, the more I realized that something was definitely amiss. I must've missed the part where 4 minions equals one 1st level creature! No wonder. Heck, I could've mobbed them a couple more packs of minions and maybe a dragonshield! Oh well, live and learn! It's a good thing this was just an intro to learn the rules before the real campaign begins! Thanks again guys! Much appreciated! Also, keep the suggestions coming too!

 

[KarinsDad]

Hmm..reloaded doesn't have Varkaze show up at all. It claims that a hobgoblin waits in the shadows by the pool and then disappears to warn the others.

Sorry, I was looking at the original, not Reloaded.

4E Sample Combats

But, I suspect that they are similar based on your original description.

But, that makes it even easier if Varkaze does not show up. 500 XP spread over 3 rounds. ~16 actions in the first 3 rounds instead of ~27 makes it about a 300 XP encounter. Super easy.

 

[DaveyB]

Any ideas on how you guys handle initiative? Right now I use the trusty combat matrix printed on paper. I'm seeing ideas like using combat cards, magnetic white boards, round-robin initiative where the go clockwise or counter-clockwise around the table, etc. Any ideas on how make tracking initiative less cumbersome?