D&D 4E New 4e Info! GAMA Tradeshow Scoop

[Fallen Seraph]

That's the thing though, your Planescape games didn't need to focus on Sigil. Sure, most did because of the factions and all the doors to everywhere, but at one point I had my Planescape game based mostly in the Upper Planes, and in particular Mount Celestia and Bytopia. They didn't stay there all the time - they moved all over the place - but for a long time it was effectively home for them. For me, Planescape was about mood and atmosphere and the conflict of ideas and the whole idea of living in the afterlife (while not being dead) and the jaded attitude that often comes from seeing all these contradicting beliefs all around you manifested throughout the Great Wheel.

Why can't those beliefs and places not exist in the new one. The Great Wheel was simply a way to try and create uniformed ways of placing things. You can still have those things that created the substance outside of the Great Wheel they are not tied to it.

All these beliefs, ideas, attitude they can still exist without the Great Wheel. If anything the Great Wheel caused restrictions on this, since it was harder to break out of that Great Wheel symmetry.

For example, your Mount Celestia and Bytopia those can still exist in the 4e cosmology nothing is stopping them from being in it.

 

[Zil]

Why can't those beliefs and places not exist in the new one. The Great Wheel was simply a way to try and create uniformed ways of placing things. You can still have those things that created the substance outside of the Great Wheel they are not tied to it.

All these beliefs, ideas, attitude they can still exist without the Great Wheel. If anything the Great Wheel caused restrictions on this, since it was harder to break out of that Great Wheel symmetry.

For example, your Mount Celestia and Bytopia those can still exist in the 4e cosmology nothing is stopping them from being in it.

Oh, I actually agree. The Great Wheel isn't necessary for all those things. What is necessary is all sorts of "afterlives" from multiple, conflicting faiths stacked up in such a way that people are aware of the contradictions and strangeness of the so-called afterlife. Something analogous to the Great Wheel and the stacking up of radically different mythologies all over the place, and bleeding into places like Sigil through its many doors, is what is required.

If the Point of Lights background is carried forwards into the 4E Planescape setting and you do not have multiple worlds and multiple religions/mythologies and associated multiple afterlives all conflicting in contradicting ways, well, I don't think they'll be able to pull it off. Sure, you can make a big city with a bunch of portals in doorways ruled by an enigmatic Lady of Pain, but you still need all those conflicting beliefs with Sigil being the primary safe haven for people to philosophize and come up with explanations for the absurdity of it all - and this is where you get the Factions. You also need that cosmopolitan, jaded feel, something which might not fit well with the Points of Light background.

 

[mach1.9pants]

But many divine powers seem to be two effects glued together randomly.

? You wack at someone with your weapon, expending some divine energy on that weapon. the energy/luck/whatever (that HP represents) is taken from the baddie through the weapon to you then onto your ally. It is all magic, just like a magic version of a vampire healing when he sucks someones blood. I really don't get the problem.
Why does a blatantly magic effect have to only have one effect? If magic can heal and harm; then it can heal and harm at the same time IMO.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

See, I don't see why people have this assumption that PoL is for the WHOLE cosmology. To me, it is very much a World bound idea. They never mention PoL when it comes to the Astral Sea or Elemental Chaos, Abyss, Far Realm there is just no mention of it.

So if it doesn't carry through in the corebooks then... I don't see the worry.

I also think the fact that things like death or unknown and the Gods don't seem to know everything will add more to be debated and philosophized. There is much more room in the 4e cosmology for debate and different ideas to spring forth since so less of it is tied down.

I think too Planescape will be a good way to bring even more weirdness and unknowingness to 4e cosmology. It can discuss things like; what happens to those spirits who pass on, what happens to spirits who are scooped up, what is the Raven Queen up to, what are the rumours of Dominions who have slipped away from the Astral Sea.

We could also see Planescape be the bridging point between the different settings. How do you travel from Faerun to the World, or from the Dark Sun setting to another setting. Well through Sigil of course, so then you bring in philosophies and ideas and factions, etc, etc. from multiple settings.

 

[small pumpkin man]

Perhaps, but the cleric is the same way. Call down a holy flame, and also give an ally a distance away some unrelated bonus.

I've really liked the martial and arcane powers I've seen so far. But many divine powers seem to be two effects glued together randomly.

I really like the idea of a lot of the powers, they "feel" a lot more like abilities powered off belief than just spells cast by someone who believes in a god, I like the idea that attacking someone (with a sword or with Holy Light) is part of the prayer, and that missing your attack roll means you screwed it up*, meaning either you don't have enough belief in yourself, or your god doesn't consider it "good enough", but yeah, those lines of "you fill your sword with healing power" don't really convey that. Disapointing.

*Note that this makes more sense with 4e's "hp are really really not physical damage" since this means succeeding on your attack roll doesn't necessarily mean you've drawn blood, it just means you've completed your attack properly, leaving your opponent in a worse position than they were before.

 

[Kzach]

You bestow healing power on your weapon...so why doesn't it heal the opponent you hit with it? I'm still bothered by this disconnect for divine powers. Your weapon is imbued with healing power, so that when it hits something...an ally 50 feet away gains some hit points? There's a gulf between cause and effect that bothers me. I understand the game design reasons for it, I just don't know if I'll ever be comfortable with it.

It's really just an imagination thing to me.

There can be all sorts of creative solutions and none of them have to be the one sole answer to each individual ability. An ability could use one of the solutions one time, and a different one another time.

Take for instance the hospitaler ability. A paladin sees his comrade is weakening, and calls out to his god, "Oh great Heironeous, I beg thee, grant my companion the strength that I sap from mine enemy!"

He whacks the enemy, transfers the strength to his friend.

Or, "I will not let you claim my just friend with your wicked claws, foul demon! Arise, champion, arise!" and he whacks the enemy whilst sending positive energy to his friend.

I get that there is a disconnect, but then, it's all magic. Magic itself is a disconnect, it's just that you're used to it.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Oh, I actually agree. The Great Wheel isn't necessary for all those things. What is necessary is all sorts of "afterlives" from multiple, conflicting faiths stacked up in such a way that people are aware of the contradictions and strangeness of the so-called afterlife. Something analogous to the Great Wheel and the stacking up of radically different mythologies all over the place, and bleeding into places like Sigil through its many doors, is what is required.

The Afterlife was never important to Planescape, Philosophies on "the way things are" or "the way things should be" was important to Planescape. And the Godsmen believed in reincarnation, which contradicted most of the Great Wheel, while the Dustmen believed that everybody in reality was already in the Afterlife and that life was a delusion, which definitely contradicted the Great Wheel.

Most of the factions did absolutely fine without the Great Wheel as it was, and would thrive even in the "new cosmology" just fine. In some cases the Godsmen and the Dustmen might be more right. Even the most lawful factions the Guvners, Harmonium and Mercykillers, against the most chaotic factions the Xaositects, Bleak Cabal and Anarchists, didn't need the planes of the Great Wheel as a reason to be, or a reason to oppose each other. Especially when you consider how you'd naturally have a conflict between one group that's all about "Peace our way, or we'll beat you!" vs. "Everyone should be free, down with the status quo!"

 

[SSquirrel]

We could also see Planescape be the bridging point between the different settings. How do you travel from Faerun to the World, or from the Dark Sun setting to another setting. Well through Sigil of course, so then you bring in philosophies and ideas and factions, etc, etc. from multiple settings.

And of course I can see a smuggling ring exporting metal weapons from any number of worlds to Athas. A previously unknown desert tribe w/an ambitious leader that saved an outworlder's life gets the break on the deal and they decide to take over. Slave tribes join them or fall to their edged weapons that don't splinter on contact with another weapon. The sorceror kings start growing edgy and discussing possible alliances against this growing power while a group of adventurers (the party) is sent to discover the source of these weapons. Maybe one of the sorceror kings tries to trick the tribe into believing they would be this invincible on any world and he offers a portal to a new world to get rid of them, sending the tribes to the Realms or some such, where they would just be any other army, but in crappy armor

 

[AverageCitizen]

It's really just an imagination thing to me.

I understand what you're saying, but it honestly bothers me that beating on your enemies is how you heal people.

What people who say "Use your imagination" fail to account for is that the game is supposed to be facilitating imagination. Every mechanic, die roll, calculation and statistic is like a brush stroke in a painting, and this one seems like its gone a little arwy to me. The strokes, (rules) don't have to perfectly simulate the ideas they represent, but they should at least suggest a sword swing or a healing prayer, and leave the same kind of "feeling" that actions like that would invoke. To me, the hit and heal mechanic really falls short here.

Maybe if it were more of a burst, like the paladin's holy smiting was just spilling over into healing for his allies, but this just doesn't feel right. I understand the mechanical reasons for doing it, but I'm still a little annoyed.

Maybe it would have been better to just make heal spells a little weaker and move and/or minor actions. Dedicated healer problem solved.

 

[hong]

We could also see Planescape be the bridging point between the different settings. How do you travel from Faerun to the World, or from the Dark Sun setting to another setting. Well through Sigil of course, so then you bring in philosophies and ideas and factions, etc, etc. from multiple settings.

Ugh, no. That was exactly what they did for 2E, where every setting was its own set of planes within the all-encompassing TSRverse. All it achieves is pissing off the fans of each setting ("what do you mean, Vecna is in Ravenloft?").