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[Fifth Element]

Magic doesn't always make sense. That's why it's magic.

It doesn't have to, but it's nice when it does. The problem is not the magic (the buff effects themselves), but how the effects are tied (unnecessarily IMHO) to particular attack forms.

 

[Protagonist]

The sins of previous editions, and all that.

of course and our group loves this spell (the fact that Tasha is the real name of someone in our group makes it even better)


But the attack = somatic component approach seems to be a simple explanation whenever you can not thing of anything better and it is really no worse than other decisions on how magic or powers work

 

[The Little Raven]

But this is why the lack of cause and effect is a problem.

I prayed to my lord Bahamut to guide my blow and received his divine favor as my sword bit into my foe's skull (Cause; used power and attacked). My ally, Socinus, is bolstered by my show of divine fury and fights with renewed purpose and vigor (Effect; my buddy gets healed).

 

[pukunui]

It doesn't have to, but it's nice when it does. The problem is not the magic (the buff effects themselves), but how the effects are tied (unnecessarily IMHO) to particular attack forms.

Precisely.

I don't have a problem with a paladin or cleric calling upon his deity to grant him some divine (magical) power to do a specific thing. What I have a problem with, as I said before, is tying two seemingly unrelated effects to a single cause.

 

[pukunui]

I prayed to my lord Bahamut to guide my blow and received his divine favor as my sword bit into my foe's skull (Cause; used power and attacked). My ally, Socinus, is bolstered by my show of divine fury and fights with renewed purpose and vigor (Effect; my buddy gets healed).

But why would the attack only bolster one ally? Was he the only one paying attention at the time or something? Besides, by that explanation, you end up with one player determining another player's PC's reactions, which I thought was a no-no ...

P1: My paladin calls upon Pelor to grant him strength and then strikes the orc on the head with his mace. Hey, Bob, your character is inspired by my character's attack and gets some temporary hit points.

P2: Wait ... what? What if my character doesn't want to be inspired by your character's attack? He wasn't even looking at what your character was doing. He was too busy fending off these other orcs ...

 

[Fifth Element]

I prayed to my lord Bahamut to guide my blow and received his divine favor as my sword bit into my foe's skull (Cause; used power and attacked). My ally, Socinus, is bolstered by my show of divine fury and fights with renewed purpose and vigor (Effect; my buddy gets healed).

I prayed to my lord Bahamut to bring down a rain of holy fire upon our foes, such that my ally might be bolstered by my show of divine fury with renewed purpose and vigor. To which my lord Bahamut replied "Sorry, you need to attack with your sword to get that effect. How about an AC bonus instead?"

That's what I'm talking about.

 

[Cadfan]

P2: Wait ... what? What if my character doesn't want to be inspired by your character's attack? He wasn't even looking at what your character was doing. He was too busy fending off these other orcs ...

When a power’s target entry specifies that it affects you and one or more of your allies, then you can take advantage of the power’s effect along with your teammates. Otherwise, “ally” or “allies” does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets. “Enemy” or “enemies” means a creature or creatures that aren’t your allies (whether those creatures are hostile toward you or not). “Creature” or “creatures” means allies and enemies both, as well as you.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080425a

 

[The Little Raven]

But why would the attack only bolster one ally?

Maybe he was the only one paying attention. Maybe he was the closest. Maybe he was the one whose spirits were so low, he truly needed something to bolster him.

P1: My paladin calls upon Pelor to grant him strength and then strikes the orc on the head with his mace. Hey, Bob, your character is inspired by my character's attack and gets some temporary hit points.

P2: Wait ... what? What if my character doesn't want to be inspired by your character's attack? He wasn't even looking at what your character was doing. He was too busy fending off these other orcs ...

P1: My song inspires you all!
P2: Look, dillweed, I'm too busy actually fighting and being useful to listen to your one-man production of the Rains of Castamere.

Asshats will be asshats no matter what game you're playing.

 

[The Little Raven]

That's what I'm talking about.

Oh, I see. You want the paladin to be throwing around massive Controller/Leader abilities, since that's what AoE damage (rain of holy fire) and AoE healing (healing/buffing all allies) effects are.

 

[Fifth Element]

Oh, I see. You want the paladin to be throwing around massive Controller/Leader abilities, since that's what AoE damage (rain of holy fire) and AoE healing (healing/buffing all allies) effects are.

No, actually, I switched to talking about the cleric powers some time ago. You know, the leader class with a touch of controller?