New Archetype: Greenlord (Feedback needed)

[Arknath]

All,

Looking for some feedback on a new archetype I'm creating. My wife wants to play a plant-centric druid in my next campaign and so I thought an archetype would be better than a new prestige class (that comes later...thinking of changing up the Verdant Lord).

At any rate...here it is...let me know what you think.

Greenlords, or if they are female - Greenladys, are druids that prefer the comforting presence of plants to the unpredictable behaviors of animals. They believe their power comes from the vegetation that surrounds us all. The Greenlord has the following class abilities.


Plant Companion (Ex): Greenlords and ladies gain a plant companion. ((detail Plant Eidolon concept)). This replaces Nature's Bond.

Plant Sense (Ex): Greenlords gain a +4 on Knowledge(nature), Perception and Survival checks when the check is made to identify navigate through or other situations regarding plants. This ability replaces Nature Sense.

Plant Affinity: The greenlord gains Plant domain and all its granted abilities. This ability replaces Wild Empathy.

Spontaneous Domain Casting: A greenlord druid can channel stored spell energy into domain spells that she has not prepared ahead of time. She can "lose" a prepared spell in order to cast any domain spell of the same level or lower. This ability replaces the greenlord's ability to spontaneously cast summon nature's ally.

Spore Immunity (Ex): Greenlords gain immunity to the spore attacks of plants and spells (including spell-like abilities).

Wild Shape (Su): The greenlord cannot use wild shape to adopt an animal form. This ability functions at her druid level +4 if she uses the ability to adopt a plant form.

Advanced Wildshape (Su): The greenlord or greenlady can, at 13th level, use his or her wild shape ability to advance the size of an adopted plant form using the Giant Creature simple template on page 295 of the Bestiary. This ability replaces a thousand faces.

 

[paradox42]

What is the "plant companions rule?" I don't see it in either Core or APG.

 

[Arknath]

What is the "plant companions rule?" I don't see it in either Core or APG.

My bad...

I'm talking about th plant companion rules in Draon Magazine #357 Class Acts.

Ark

 

[paradox42]

It's a cool idea for an Archetype, certainly. Just need to make the execution work well.

Nature Bond (Ex): Greenlords and ladies may not select a domain at first level and must choose to have a plant companion. This ability makes use of the plant companions rule.

Clumsy wording here, since they actually do get a Domain- the Plant Domain. Just call the ability "Plant Companion" and say it replaces Nature Bond, that's simpler.

And the Plant Companion article is very interesting. Puts me in mind of a sort of Plant-Eidolon. I'd go that way, in fact- dispense with the whole "need to do a 24-hour ritual to upgrade your plant" bit and the level-long delays, and just have it work like a Summoner's Eidolon instead. But the same abilities can be used, as long as you assign appropriate point costs to the abilities. As a starting point, compare the Plant Companion ability list to the list of Eidolon Evolutions, and for abilities not on the Evolutions list, try to figure out where it would fit. As a last-ditch fallback, perhaps the point cost could be related to the number of levels the original article says the Plant takes to grow the upgrade; for instance, Blunting Mold takes 3 levels- so maybe it costs 2 or 3 points.

Nature Sense (Ex): Greenlords gain a +4 on Knowledge(nature) and Survival checks when the check is made to identify navigate through or other situations regarding plants.

Give this a new name, and say it replaces Nature Sense (since that's an ability of the standard Druid). Perhaps Plant Sense, since it's so plant-focused.

Plant Affinity (Ex): The greenlord gains Plant domain and all its granted abilities. This ability replaces Wild Empathy and the ability to spontaneously cast summon nature's ally spells.

Strikethrough mine, of course- read on.

Spontaneous Domain Casting: A greenlord druid can channel stored spell energy into domain spells that she has not prepared ahead of time. She can "lose" a prepared spell in order to cast any domain spell of the same level or lower.

This should replace the spontaneous casting of Summon Nature's Ally spells. Spontaneous casting == spontaneous casting.

Wild Shape (Su): The greenlord gains this ability at 6th level. The greenlord or lady may not use this ability to transform into an animal shape, but can assume the shape of a plant the same level she gains this ability. At 18th level, the druid can change shape into that of a Gargantuan plant. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you assume those abilities: Damage Reduction, regeneration 10, trample.

Gargantuan plant: If the form you take is that of a Gargantuan plant, you gain a +16 size bonus to Strength, a -4 size penalty to Dexterity, a +8 bonus to your Constitution and +8 natural armor bonus +8.

Seems good to me. Might want to explicitly state whether this means they get 1 less use of Wild Shape per day, which would be the case if you follow the level table from when it's granted the same way the standard Druid does (and still get infinite uses at 20th as a capstone).

Awakening (Sp): At 13th level, you may cast the awaken spell as a druid of your level once per week on a plant target only.

This casting is slightly different than the spell, as follows:

1) The plants are under no obligation to serve you in any way and have their own free will to do as they choose. 2) The disposition of the plant when awakened is left up to the DM based on several factors like environment and recent events that have occurred around the plants home.

For example, a tree that has witnessed a humanoid starting a destructive forest fire recently might react with hostility towards a greenlord or may react with friendliness and a sense of unified vengeance upon those who harmed its kin.

This ability also requires a small amount of upkeep. Each month, during the new moon, you must be able to call and hold a meeting - called a moot - with your awakened plant friends. As they have their own free will they are under no obligation to you to answer the call. The physical location of the moot is unimportant, though it is best to hold it in a natural surrounding.

If a plant agrees to become a bonded partner with the greenlord it provides the druid with a faint sensory connection with each plant you awaken in this fashion. You may not have more awakened plants bound to you in this way than half your greenlord level at any one time.

The sensory connection conveys upon the druid a 360-degree sight and sound upon concentrating on a particular awakened friend's life force. The plant is aware of the "intrusion" and can allow or deny the druid to access this ability as it wills. The ability works as long as the druid is on the same plane as the plant in question and the plant is standing on a natural earthen surface (rocks of any kind will forfeit this ability working).

This replaces the thousand faces ability

This strikes me as wonky. Why would the character do this, when the regular Awaken spell is only 5th level (so they've been able to cast it one or more times per day if they were so inclined, for the previous four levels), and makes the awakened plant both friendly and willing to serve? I'd scrap this ability completely, or maybe make it just about creating the sensory link (with plants the character has previously used the Awaken spell on, of course).

 

[Arknath]

First, thanks for the feedback. Much quicker here than it was on the Pathfinder boards.

Second, I posted this up so quick I forgot to mention (not that it matters overly much) that the ideas were very rough, but the principles were there.

Third, I have to say...all good ideas here.

Clumsy wording here, since they actually do get a Domain- the Plant Domain. Just call the ability "Plant Companion" and say it replaces Nature Bond, that's simpler.

Very much agreed here. In my haste to build my first archetype, I copied out of the APG/UM books a little too closely...and even they didn't keep all the names .

And the Plant Companion article is very interesting. Puts me in mind of a sort of Plant-Eidolon.

Very interesting indeed. I hadn't much looked at the summoner rules and so I wouldn't have made this connection. I'll check it out and see what I come up with...I'll let you know.

Give this a new name, and say it replaces Nature Sense (since that's an ability of the standard Druid). Perhaps Plant Sense, since it's so plant-focused.

Another good call. Simplicity is better. My only qualm is making sure the ability has enough "oomph" - as it were - keeping with the frequency of actually using the bonus on JUST plants.

This should replace the spontaneous casting of Summon Nature's Ally spells. Spontaneous casting == spontaneous casting.

This is a good idea too. Yer just full of em .

Seems good to me. Might want to explicitly state whether this means they get 1 less use of Wild Shape per day, which would be the case if you follow the level table from when it's granted the same way the standard Druid does (and still get infinite uses at 20th as a capstone).

Yes...my only apprehension about this ability was allowing a "gargantuan" sized creature into a party. I also didn't want to put the ability too early - 16th - instead of 18th. Your thoughts on placement of this ability.

This strikes me as wonky. Why would the character do this, when the regular Awaken spell is only 5th level (so they've been able to cast it one or more times per day if they were so inclined, for the previous four levels), and makes the awakened plant both friendly and willing to serve? I'd scrap this ability completely, or maybe make it just about creating the sensory link (with plants the character has previously used the Awaken spell on, of course).

Although not the capstone of the class, I was particularly proud of this ability. As a DM and a player, I've got a taste for the dramatic and I love it when the player characters have some in-game explanation/ritual that imprints how they achieve their powers and abilities. In fact, I'm the DM (love me or hate me) that will force training time between levels (most likely in a montage of "I practice this form for a week" or "I test this new spell on a mouse before I test it on me". It gives some depth to the campaign world.

Looking at the ability from a fresh set if eyes is what I wanted. I thought about the fact that "Awaken" was a spell that could be cast multiple times per day and thus outstretch this ability with it's sheer applicability. That being said, I wanted to give the greenlord something a bit more than just "tree-friends" and something that was more of the "Prying Eyes" sort of ability in a druid-esque ability. The frequency and ability can be scrapped, but...I do not think that "A Thousand Faces" is a very "plant-like" ability and I'd need to find another 13th level ability.

I can be long-winded...so, I'll cut it here and see what you think

 

[GlassEye]

Wild Shape (Su): The greenlord gains this ability at 6th level. The greenlord or lady may not use this ability to transform into an animal shape, but can assume the shape of a plant the same level she gains this ability. At 18th level, the druid can change shape into that of a Gargantuan plant. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you assume those abilities: Damage Reduction, regeneration 10, trample.

Gargantuan plant: If the form you take is that of a Gargantuan plant, you gain a +16 size bonus to Strength, a -4 size penalty to Dexterity, a +8 bonus to your Constitution and +8 natural armor bonus +8.

Following the general pattern of Wild Shape in the APG druid animal shaman archetypes would make your Greenlord's Wild Shape look something like this:

Wild Shape (Su): At 6th level, a Greenlord’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a plant creature, she instead uses her druid level + 2.​

Doing it in this fashion would exchange some of the high level power of the Gargantuan form for some lower level versatility of animal forms and give plant forms as follows:

• 6th level - Small or Medium plant (plant shape I)
• 8th level - add Large plant (plant shape II)
• 10th level - add Huge plant (plant shape III)

By the way, plant shape III (available at 12th level or 10th level if the above is used) gives DR, regeneration 5, and trample (if the plant has it, of course) so you are only actually gaining a +5 to the regeneration ability with your Gargantuan plant special abilities.

 

[Arknath]

Following the general pattern of Wild Shape in the APG druid animal shaman archetypes would make your Greenlord's Wild Shape look something like this:

Wild Shape (Su): At 6th level, a Greenlord’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level – 2. If she takes on the form of a plant creature, she instead uses her druid level + 2.​

Doing it in this fashion would exchange some of the high level power of the Gargantuan form for some lower level versatility of animal forms and give plant forms as follows:

• 6th level - Small or Medium plant (plant shape I)
• 8th level - add Large plant (plant shape II)
• 10th level - add Huge plant (plant shape III)

By the way, plant shape III (available at 12th level or 10th level if the above is used) gives DR, regeneration 5, and trample (if the plant has it, of course) so you are only actually gaining a +5 to the regeneration ability with your Gargantuan plant special abilities.

I did think about this approach, but my goal was to prevent the greenlord from shapeshifting into animals at all and none of the APG/UM archetypes completely removed that ability. IMO, I think a beastmaster would not choose to transform into a plant - or do so very, very rarely. Vice versa for a greenlord. As to your doing the +2 level for changing into plants, I could see this happening for sure and in fact I gave it a brief thought. Do you think the power coupled with the Gargantuan size ability is balanced?

The Gargantuan details are fuzzy...I only increased them a bit, but it could be a higher bonus for each ability. Again, Gargantuan size is huge (well, not literally ) and I didn't want to overpower this archetype. Better to err on the side of weak and beef up later, I think.

With this in mind, what would you suggest?

 

[GlassEye]

The plant list is so limited that I think removing animals entirely as a choice may be a mistake. I agree a greenlord would prefer a plant form over an animal form but totally removing the capability to wild shape into an animal may be lowering the power too much. Adding Gargantuan may be increasing it too much, if there wasn't the further issue of no Gargantuan plant creatures existing in either the Bestiary or the Bestiary 2 (essentially making that a non-power).

Here are the lists of plant creatures:
Bestiary
assassin vine (Large), basidirond (Medium), giant flytrap (Huge), shambling mound (Large), treant (Huge), vegepygmy (Small), violet fungus (Medium), yellow musk creeper (Medium)

Bestiary 2
hangman tree (Huge), mandragora (Small), moonflower (Huge), mu spore (Colossal), phycomid (Small) , quickwood (Huge), sard (Colossal), tendriculos (Huge), viper vine (Large), xtabay (Small)

So a druid able to shape into a plant starts with seven forms, then gains three more forms with access to Large, and finally six more forms when he can shape into Huge. If plant only is the way you prefer to go I would probably balance it out by adding a different ability somewhere else or increasing the strength of another ability and just accept that a Greenlord's wild shape is less versatile.

 

[Arknath]

The plant list is so limited that I think removing animals entirely as a choice may be a mistake. I agree a greenlord would prefer a plant form over an animal form but totally removing the capability to wild shape into an animal may be lowering the power too much. Adding Gargantuan may be increasing it too much, if there wasn't the further issue of no Gargantuan plant creatures existing in either the Bestiary or the Bestiary 2 (essentially making that a non-power).

Check it out now...I think I adjusted for the lack of options and power with giving it to them at 4th level and a +4 to their ability to transform into plant creatures.

I'm also toying with the idea of giving them the "Natural Spell" feat so that they can cast in plant shape (or, just cast in wild shape in general).

Here are the lists of plant creatures:
Bestiary
assassin vine (Large), basidirond (Medium), giant flytrap (Huge), shambling mound (Large), treant (Huge), vegepygmy (Small), violet fungus (Medium), yellow musk creeper (Medium)

Bestiary 2
hangman tree (Huge), mandragora (Small), moonflower (Huge), mu spore (Colossal), phycomid (Small) , quickwood (Huge), sard (Colossal), tendriculos (Huge), viper vine (Large), xtabay (Small)

So a druid able to shape into a plant starts with seven forms, then gains three more forms with access to Large, and finally six more forms when he can shape into Huge. If plant only is the way you prefer to go I would probably balance it out by adding a different ability somewhere else or increasing the strength of another ability and just accept that a Greenlord's wild shape is less versatile.

This is something to playtest I suppose. I am ok with the number of options being limited, as long as they are solid options. I think the "Advanced Wild Shape" ability now listed above helps make up for the lack of options and doesn't completely break the game.

My intention with it is to use the "rebuild" rules with the Giant Creature template thus increasing the size. However, the bad thing is it gives Gargantuan 5 levels earlier. It might be a better idea to use the "advanced creature" template at 13th and then give the "Giant Wild Shape" ability at 18th. (this last sentence was a thought I had while typing this reply...having already updated the OP).

I think we've almost got it...thanks for your input...it's turning into a viable option.

 

[Arknath]

Taking the idea of an eidolon from paradox42 and running with it here...let's see what you guys think...this is VERY rough...and I'm just concentrating on evolutions at the moment. The original Class Acts article calls for the companion to be a creature of the "plant" type and not "outsider" like the summoner's eidolon is. I think this should remain, but the plant type gets a few battle friendly abilities that the outsider doesn't...so we'll have to see how it works out in play test.


Plant Companion Rules
HD = d8
BAB = 3/4 HD
Skills = perception, stealth
Good/Bad saves = Good Fort; Bad Ref, Will
Plant Traits = LLV, Immunity to all mind-affecting effects, Immunity to paralysis, poison, polymorphing, sleep and stunning effects, proficient in natural weapons, not proficient with armor, eats and breathes but does not sleep.
Base forms = quadruped, biped, serpentine

1-point Evolutions - Bite, Bioluminescent, Bonus Feat, Cactus Spurs, Claws, Climb, Darkvision, Eldritch Fibers, Improved Damage, Improved Natural Armor, Pincers, Pounce, Pull, Reach, Resistance, Slam, Spines, Sting, Swim, Tentacle

2-point Evolutions - Ability Increase, Alacrity, Blindsense, Constrict, Distracting Pollen, Grab, Immunity, Limbs, Poison, Swift, Trample, Tremorsense, Trip

3-point Evolutions - Blindsight, Burrow, Damage Reduction, Frightful Presence, Powerful, Swallow Whole

4-point Evolutions - Blunting Mold, Growth Spurt, Roots, Spell Resistance, Sticky Sap, Tendrils

Alacrity (Ex) Your plant companion may, as a part of a full attack action, make a bonus melee attack using it's highest attack bonus.

Bioluminescent (Ex): Your plant companion glows in the dark creating a non-magical illumination equal to a torch. It may suppress or reactivate this light as a standard action.

Blunting Mold (Ex): Your plant companion develops a thick cloying along its length that automatically coats any slashing or piercing weapon that damages it. This mold causes the weapon to deal half damage on all attacks until the attacker spends 1 standard action wiping it off. This evolution can be taken twice. The second time it takes a full round action to remove the mold.

Bonus Feat (Ex): Your plant companion gains a bonus feat. It must meet all the prerequisites for the feat it gains. This evolution can be taken more than once.

Cactus Spurs (Ex): Your plant companion grows barbs all over its body and limbs. Creatures who grapple with it or strikes it with a natural weapon or an unarmed strike takes 1d3 points of piercing damage. This evolution can be the target of the "improved damage" evolution.

Darkvision (Ex): Your plant companion gains Darkvision 60'. This evolution can be taken more than once and increases the visibility by 30' each time.

Distracting Pollen (Ex): Your plant companion gains the ability to - as a standard action - emit a cloud of red spores in a 10' radius. All creatures within the red dust gain partial concealment, granting a 20% miss chance to attacks. The dust disperses after 1d4 rounds. Your plant companion must wait 5 rounds between uses of this evolution.

Eldritch Fibers (Ex): ((Copy/paste Magic Attacks and change for plant flavor))

Growth Spurt (Ex): ((Copy/paste Large and change for plant flavor))

Powerful (Ex): Your plant companion gains +1HD.

Roots (Ex): ((Copy/paste Fast Healing and change for plant flavor))

Spines (Ex): Your plant companion can make ranged attacks equal to the number of attacks it has with it's other natural weapons - by firing tiny spines. It must make melee or ranged attacks in a single round, it cannot mix them during one combat round. These spine attacks deal 1d3 points of piercing damage + half its Strength modifier. Any additional effects - such as poison - affect these attacks.

Sticky Sap (Ex): Your plant companion oozes a strong adhesive that can trap the weapons used to attack it. When such an attack hits, the wielder must immediately make an opposed CMD (check mechanic) check against your plant companion. The weapon can be pulled free as a move action (that provokes an attack of opportunity) by beating the plant at another CMD.

Swift (Ex): Your plant companion gains 10' of movement to one of its movement types. This evolution can be taken multiple times per movement type that the plant has and its effects stack. Plant Sense (Ex): Greenlords gain a +4 on Knowledge(nature), Perception and Survival checks when the check is made to identify navigate through or other situations regarding plants. This ability replaces Nature Sense.

Tendrils (Ex): Your plant companions reach doubles. This can only be taken once.


Keep in mind that the list above (the one above the individual descriptions of "new" evolutions) are the ONLY evolutions that a plant companion can take. I thought there was several of them in the summoner's eidolon (from both the APG and UM) that didn't belong with this creature, and there are some new ones that the summoner's eidolon don't get.

Also, I'm going for a lower intelligence creature than the eidolon...I think it would make sense that (for example) the plant companion can't learn the Basic Magic evolution from UM that the summoner's eidolon can. The plant companion has more of a "brutish" feel to me.

At any rate, off to think up a few more options...feel free to weigh in on some of the ideas that are presented above.

(P.S I do know that some of the evolutions are in the "wrong" point category - Blindsense and Blindsight for example - this is on purpose, since I think it makes more sense for a plant who, really, has no eyes to see with...)