New Article: Death and Dying

[Wormwood]

Nah, if the PC's want to pump one for information, then he automatically becomes important to the plot, yes?

That's how I'd play it.

 

[Imban]

I still have "3e goggles" on in this case, obviously, but I see it as a simplification of the system rather than different rules. For most monsters, 0 HP = never going to take an action again = dead. When it is important that this is not the case, such as when it's a PC and it actually matters big time if they die, or healing is in the picture, or prisoner-taking is an issue, the simplification is pushed aside in favor of the full rules.

I would be dissatisfied if, in a hypothetical identical-team mirror match, the NPC team's healers were dramatically less effective than the PC team's healers because the PCs bounce back from 0 HP multiple times during battle while the NPCs stay down permanently.

 

[Thaumaturge]

You really need to look at a chart to remember 20 great, 10+ okay, 9- oh dear.

I doubt anyone needs to look at a chart unless they are the sort of person that has trouble remembering their own name.

Well, as I said in the part of the sentence you didn't quote...

I already remember it, but rolling 10% every round has become ingrained.

It isn't difficult to remember, but if this is the only time it shows up in the system, it will be odd. It looks like it is used elsewhere in the system as the new "saving throw", so as I said four posts later:

If the same mechanic permeates the system, then it becomes easy to use and consistent.

It appears not only can I remember my own name, I can remember my own posts, and I agree the mechanic, if it permeates the system, is a simple one.

My concern, very likely unfounded, is if the mechanic is rarely used elsewhere in the system. In 3e, turning checks aren't all that complicated, but they are so different seeming from the rest of the system, they become harder to remember.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Just Another User]

*Huge beaming smile* If my PCs can pull off an encounter half as good as Princess Bride, I will be so happy

The question is, how happy will you be if ALL the encounters will look like that?

That is my big worry about 4e, sure, powers and mechanics seems cool, a fight where half the Pc go down and then go back fighting seems fun... but if all the fights have PCs that go up and down like yo-yos it will be still fun? and when the fighter/warlord/wizard use his "cool" power for the 250th time... it will be still cool? or it will just look like cheesy?

People keep mentioning action movies, but the "hero half dead jump back into fight" while happen in every movie it usually happen just once for movie, can you immagine a good action movie where in evey single fight the hero is nearly beated to death and at the last moment jump up and win the fight, and again in the following fight,and again, and again, until it defeat the BBEG (obviously not before he is nearly beat to death by him)? Would you still call it a good movie? or more a MST3K candidate? (which admitedly is always a good movie, if for totally different reasons)

 

[Just Another User]

But which enemy the 56 henchmen in robes or the evil vizier masquarading as the benevolent if doddering old priest ? I for one don't like the minutiae of making the party make 57 coup de gras roles and turning them from the saviors of the town into the throat slitting saviors of the town (we'll even put aside what this could mean for a paladin as we don't know the rules for them yet)

"Okay we loot the vizier dicker over his loot and move on to the *miscellany the mooks were carrying"

"Is that what everyone is doing"

party "yes"

when they are done counting the lucre

"Role a perception check please"

"hmmm seems something is amiss the vizier's body is not where you left it a trail of blood leads to a curtained off passage that ends abruptly."

*miscellany being the coinage, jewelry, and anything that might be used as a disguise, any notes etcetera

of course do you know perfectly well what will happen at the end of the next fight,and of every following fight.

"to avoid another "vizier incident" we cut the throat of every "dead" enemy, better sure than sorry."

 

[Dragonblade]

My concern, very likely unfounded, is if the mechanic is rarely used elsewhere in the system. In 3e, turning checks aren't all that complicated, but they are so different seeming from the rest of the system, they become harder to remember.

This is a valid concern. However, rest assured, these dying rules are identical to the new 4e saving throw mechanic that adjudicates whether you can throw off ongoing effects. In 4e, if you are affected by an ongoing effect such as poison, paralysis, etc. you roll d20

1-9 - No change
10-19 - You shake off the effect
Natural 20 - You shake off the effect you were rolling for and all other affects that are affecting you at the same time.

I could see some interesting synergy if "dying" is treated like any other ongoing effect. Roll a natural 20 and not only are you back to 1/4 HP, you are also no longer burning, poisoned, etc. Talk about coming back with a vengeance. Also if you are rolling a save to overcome poison and are dying, does a natural 20 cure your "dying" also?

Still so much we don't know.

 

[JohnSnow]

People keep mentioning action movies, but the "hero half dead jump back into fight" while happen in every movie it usually happen just once for movie, can you immagine a good action movie where in evey single fight the hero is nearly beated to death and at the last moment jump up and win the fight, and again in the following fight,and again, and again, until it defeat the BBEG (obviously not before he is nearly beat to death by him)?

Well, I'd argue that a long-running campaign is more like a TV series than a movie. The analog to the movie (or TV episode) is probably a single adventure. So the question you should ask is: how likely is it this will happen to each and every PC in each and every fight in one adventure?

I think it's pretty unlikely. It might happen to one PC in every fight, or it might happen to one PC in some fights, none in others, and more than one in a big knockdown, drag-out fight with the BBEG. The best comparison I can give is to look at an action adventure series like, say, Firefly, Stargate: SG-1, Buffy: The Vampire Slayer, The Magnificent Seven or even Star Trek. The chances of a dramatic recovery happening a couple times an episode is pretty high. And it usually goes up when more heroic characters are involved.

I don't think PCs will be routinely plunging to negative hit points, but it could happen. And when it does, there's a 5% chance that they'll bounce back. So in other words, 1 time in 20 when a PC actually hits negative hit points, he's gonna "pull an Inigo Montoya."

Personally, I can live with probabilities like that.

 

[Just Another User]

You know what I always thought was funny about cure light wounds? It doesn't.

You're a 2nd level fighter. You are fighting another 2nd level fighter. You are stabbed in the arm by a sword. You sustain a light (5 hp) wound. You drink your CLW potion and get back 5 hp.

You're a 20th level fighter. You are fighting another 20th level fighter. You are stabbed in the arm by a sword. You sustain a light (40 hp) wound. You drink your CLW potion and get back 5 hp.

The wound is identical.

no, it is not. that same wound on a 1st level commoner would kill him a dozen times, as an experienced fighter you were able to take it in a less lethal point (but if it was 5cm on the left it could have hit your heart) also as an experienced fighter you are used to get wounded and to the pain, a lesser fighter would be already panicking and/or collapsing just from how much it hurt, but you? you 've seen worse, you know that this wound while serious is far from lethal for you, and that you could take another half dozen like it before to begin to worry, so you push down the pain, gnash your teeth and keep fighting. but even so a simple 1st level spell is not enough to close a gash like it.

Or, at least, this from my view of hit points, a 20% "meat" (that Con Bonus must count for something), a 30% luck, experience (you moved just enough so that heart wound hit you on the arm") and the rest "guts" or spirit ("You are bleeding" "I've got no time to bleed")

 

[Spatula]

Only Constructs and Undead I believe.

Of course, PC constructs and undead are also dead zero hit points.

This new system is interesting, and it does fix the problem of the negative hp buffer not scaling with damage, which is definitely an issue at higher levels in 3e. It doesn't fix the issue of knowing how long you have to rescue a downed PC (still at least 3 rounds), and certainly seems to produce some wonky results. I'm left wondering how one actually dies in an actual group combat situation at mid levels and beyond. Foes can choose to try and finish off someone who's downed... but if you can't do it in one round (likely), any sort of healing will completely undo your efforts. And everyone can heal.

 

[Just Another User]

someone can explain this

At 15th level, that fighter might face a tough brute capable of dishing out 25 or 30 points of damage with its best attack… or nearly twice that on a crit.

my impressionn is that he is talking about 4e in this part (because else the sentence would make no sense), but 4e crits maiximize damage not double it, so what's happen? Are 15 level "brute" monsters rolling 10d6 or something similiar for damage? I thought they wanted to remove randomness.

but at least this time are not saying how much previous edition sucked, maybe they are learning.

And no "cool" word, hell just froze over.

Still "meh" though.