New character: Avenger (I admit I have doubts...)

[Dr_Sage]

Good afternoon folks!

I remmember old treads about Avenger builds and options, but after lookig 6 pages back and not finding a search engine, here I am looking for wisdom.


First and foremost my future character will probably be an agent of an Eberron church. As far as I can see my DM wants to develop a mix of Batman + Sherlock Holmes (I would add Night Wing).

He is a very solid DM and I know the plot will be good, and I would like to build a resorcefull character that fits the story, but also would be mechanically efficient.

Things I would like to do, in no particular orther:

- Dont be afraid of the physical enviroment. Jump, climb, swim as needed, either to get an object, save someone, do something important.

- Be stealthy. I would like to go ahead of the team in dungeons, and I will probably disapear from time to time to scout our surroundings.

- Be perceptive, cunning, get clues. Dont easly be cautch off guard.

- Be able to be a great "fighter", holding my own battles if needed, doing very good damage.

Keep in mind that the group will be extra small, probably 3 players, maybe 2 melees alone. I usually dont like weird races, as I am a very traditional fellow (absolutely no genasi for example).

Problems I have been having while building this guy:

- The physical part demands physical stats, namely strenght and dexterity. Avenger main is wisdom + something.

- The "Sherlock Holmes" part seems to be more fitting to a Int based build, but even that: int would only be usefull for some powers... not skills. I may be missing feats tho.

- Admitely i have been having a hard time with the image of a "clothie", with maybe 10-12 strenght, wielding a 2 handed axe, sword, or maybe fullblade. Its weird, as I said: I am kinda bound to tradition.


My gut tells me I must be missing something. Not to mention Avenger seems to have lower damage output than other strikers (even by mising less), but I trust I must be building bad sheets.

I am starting to have the feeling that I should build a rogue instead...

Any thoughts, imputs, proposals, other players avenger builds or experiences would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Obryn]

I have an avenger in my group, and it seems like it could fit the bill very well for what you're looking at.

For starters, go with a Pursuit avenger, which will give you the Dexterity you're looking for. (It also works nicely with heavy blade feats, with that fullblade you're almost certainly using.) Oh yes - if you go the Dex route, get Fullblade proficiency ASAP; high crit is vital for an Avenger.

Wisdom will help with your perception. For added Wisdom, mobility, and Perception, go with an Elf. That's more along the line of gathering clues than Intelligence is.

A 16/16 (to 18/18) Wis/Dex allotment is just about ideal for you. Put as much as you can, otherwise, in Strength. That will also help with feats, help with your Melee Basic Attack, and help with the climbing/jumping/swimming part. You will qualify for Battle Awareness right away - a Fighter multiclass which lets you smack someone for ignoring you, and which will give you a skill.

As for damage output... Well, if you're looking for peak damage, Avengers aren't the way to go. You're not, though - you're also looking for high defenses and a character who can go solo in a fight. In that case, Avenger is definitely what you're looking for. You're the least-squishy Striker out there. Look at Avengers as part-Striker, part-Controller, and part-Defender, and pay lots of attention to your powers' rider effects. You're hitting almost all the time, so that mean stuff will come into play very often. Teleporting an enemy away from a fight is a heck of a thing to do to them.

Finally, a quick word about power selection. I'd strongly recommend taking a ranged power as one of your two At-Wills. Yes, I know - you can't use your Oath whammy with most of them, so why bother? Frankly, it gives you a great way to operate at range and deliver some radiant pain in the process; odds are you'd be using one favorite melee at-will for almost everything anyways. Getting slowed or immobilized will otherwise really ruin your day. (You could also maybe make this work with a bow, but then you're looking at switching weapons and all the timing issues that creates.)

As a closing note, the Avenger in my group ruins my monsters' day every bit as much as any other character in the party, and sometimes more. Sure, he's often outshined by the Ranger in the damage department, but his mobility and ability to reshape the battlefield makes him a huge thorn in my side.

-O

 

[Samir]

It sounds like an Avenger might be exactly what you're looking for. I recommend going Pursuit (Wis + Dex).

Things I would like to do, in no particular orther:

- Dont be afraid of the physical enviroment. Jump, climb, swim as needed, either to get an object, save someone, do something important.

Dex as a secondary stat and athletics/acrobatics as class skills help with this.

- Be stealthy. I would like to go ahead of the team in dungeons, and I will probably disapear from time to time to scout our surroundings.

Stealth as a class skill, dex as a secondary stat, a good mix of sneaky-type powers, and no armor to wear (and thus no armor penalty) make Avengers pretty good at this.

- Be perceptive, cunning, get clues. Dont easly be cautch off guard.

Wisdom as a primary stat makes them very good at this.

- Be able to be a great "fighter", holding my own battles if needed, doing very good damage.

Avengers have the highest AC of any Striker (typically equivalent to plate + heavy shield, with the investment of two feats) and defender-level HP, and are great at holding their own.

Keep in mind that the group will be extra small, probably 3 players, maybe 2 melees alone. I usually dont like weird races, as I am a very traditional fellow (absolutely no genasi for example).

Elves make great Pursuit Avengers.

Problems I have been having while building this guy:

- The physical part demands physical stats, namely strenght and dexterity. Avenger main is wisdom + something.

Pursuit Avengers have great dexterity, and if you put your extra points into Strength and take Athletics you'll do just fine.

- The "Sherlock Holmes" part seems to be more fitting to a Int based build, but even that: int would only be usefull for some powers... not skills. I may be missing feats tho.

If you mean Sherlock Holmes in terms of deduction, then yes, Int would be more fitting (Avengers also have two Int-based builds). If you mean in terms of perceptiveness and the ability to find "clues" and never been caught unaware then Wis is the way to go.

- Admitely i have been having a hard time with the image of a "clothie", with maybe 10-12 strenght, wielding a 2 handed axe, sword, or maybe fullblade. Its weird, as I said: I am kinda bound to tradition.

Avengers are probably most closely related to Jedi. They are lightly armored but rarely get hit.

My gut tells me I must be missing something. Not to mention Avenger seems to have lower damage output than other strikers (even by mising less), but I trust I must be building bad sheets.

Built properly, Avenger damage output is respectable and lies somewhere in the upper-middle of the Striker pack. I highly recommend you check out kilpatds' Avenger's Handbook, it's a huge help.

I am starting to have the feeling that I should build a rogue instead...

Rogues are quite a bit sneakier than Avengers, but you may have trouble flanking in a three-person party with only one other melee guy. They also aren't particularly perceptive (low Wis), and are not very resilient (mediocre HP/AC). Rogues are often tied to their defender to get their job done.

 

[Herschel]

You had me interested until you said no Genasi. Burn infidel, burn! Heck, they're the race that got me away from playing humans with occasional dwarves and halflings.

A (Genasi especially) Swordmage would actually fill the bill quite nicely for what you are trying to do except the high damage part. In 4E, "solo" characters generally don't live long. The game is more designed around teamwork than any other edition. Swordmage would give you mobility, defense, wits and possible strength, as well as a defender for group battles. Arcana, History, Religion and Athletics are in their wheelhouse if you build Assault, which also gives you potentially a damage boost.

 

[Iron Sky]

I just quickly whipped up an Avenger at level 4 to see if it could meet your guidelines. Main features: Good insight, athletics, great stealth, and amazing perception, can use Overwhelming Strike as a basic attack(so no need for Strength), decent defenses(great AC), hp, and surges, and decent damage output (+11 to hit(x2), 1d12+6 with at-wills at level 4).

Hope this helps!

[sblock=Sample Avenger at level 4]====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Sample Avenger, level 4
Elf, Avenger
Avenger's Censure: Censure of Pursuit
Background: Breland (+2 to Insight)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 10, Dex 17, Int 11, Wis 21, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 10, Dex 14, Int 11, Wis 18, Cha 8.


AC: 21 Fort: 14 Reflex: 17 Will: 19
HP: 42 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 10

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +8, Perception +15, Athletics +8, Stealth +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Arcana +2, Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering +7, Endurance +2, Heal +7, History +2, Insight +9, Intimidate +1, Nature +9, Streetwise +1, Thievery +5

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade)
Level 2: Power of Skill
Level 4: Unarmored Agility

POWERS
Avenger at-will 1: Overwhelming Strike
Avenger at-will 1: Radiant Vengeance
Avenger encounter 1: Raging Tempest
Avenger daily 1: Aspect of Might
Avenger utility 2: Avenger's Resolve
Avenger encounter 3: Deadly Stride

ITEMS
Stoneskin Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +1, Fullblade of Oaths Fulfilled +1, Amulet of Life +1, Onatar's Forge +1, Everburning Torch, Adventurer's Kit, Potion of Healing (heroic tier)[/sblock]

 

[cdrcjsn]

Another possiblity is a Bard.

If you take a minimum of 13 str/dex, you can stack a bunch of striker multi-class feats that will allow you to go nova in one or two rounds and deal a ton of damage, or use one per round to cover a whole fight.

You can stack:
* Hunter's Quarry for two rounds on one target.
* Sneak Attack on one target.
* Assassin shroud on one target.
* Sorcerer adds +2 dmg for one attack.
* Barbarian adds +2 dmg to all attacks for one encounter per day.
* Paladin lets you turn Divine Challenge into a damaging ability on one target for the entire encounter if you keep attacking at range and they're forced to attack your real tank instead due to positioning.
* Avenger, reroll an attack once per encounter.

And you still get to be a leader which is really important in small group parties.

You'll get tons of skill options as well, including athletics, stealth, perception, etc.

If you do go this route, I'd suggest just going for all the [w] based powers rather than the implement ones, simply so you can also stack the weapon feats.

 

[sigfile]

At what level/tier will the campaign begin?

 

[Dr_Sage]

Lots of good stuff!

First and foremost, thank you all!


Thats a very nice start, and lots of information to look at.

Samir, I cant see that handbook, no idea why. Link takes me to a profile page in Wizards Community.

Iron Sky, looking at your example now, seems pretty nice indeed.




PS: I believe will be a low level game, probably level 1.

 

[Samir]

Samir, I cant see that handbook, no idea why. Link takes me to a profile page in Wizards Community.

You probably have to have a Wizards community account and be logged in to view it. If you don't have one yet I definitely recommend grabbing one, it's quick and there's a wealth of information on the Wizards D&D community boards.

 

[Klaus]

First and foremost, thank you all!


Thats a very nice start, and lots of information to look at.

Samir, I cant see that handbook, no idea why. Link takes me to a profile page in Wizards Community.

Iron Sky, looking at your example now, seems pretty nice indeed.




PS: I believe will be a low level game, probably level 1.

What, the dwarf died already?

First, for inspiration, this is an avenger:

[sblock]

[/sblock]

The "detective" and "fighting" angles key off the same ability: Wisdom. You'll be rolling Wisdom to hit and damage, and you'll use your high Wisdom for things like Perception and Insight (pay close attention to the skill powers that build on those skills).