D&D 5E New D&D WotC survey! On classes.

[Mind of tempest]

You guys do know you could pick the classes you wanted to provide feedback on, right? You didn't have to do them all?

well, I did.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I don't think even Sorcerers have the design space and I am once again referring people to Worlds Without Number's Necromancer or alternatively, to Gideon the Ninth.

Sorcerer would be fine if it had more design space though. A half-caster like Artificer might be a better base, but Artificer's theme and base abilities conflict with Necromancy. OR DO THEY?!?! You might actually be able to do a decent Necromancer as an Artificer subclass. It would be kind of a specific Necromancer, not an all-purpose one like a class could be, but it could do a much better job than Wizard Necromancer.

I feel I don't really agree with your vision of necromancer. To me it seems completely absurd to suggest that they would not be full casters.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I don't think even Sorcerers have the design space and I am once again referring people to Worlds Without Number's Necromancer or alternatively, to Gideon the Ninth.

Sorcerer would be fine if it had more design space though. A half-caster like Artificer might be a better base, but Artificer's theme and base abilities conflict with Necromancy. OR DO THEY?!?! You might actually be able to do a decent Necromancer as an Artificer subclass. It would be kind of a specific Necromancer, not an all-purpose one like a class could be, but it could do a much better job than Wizard Necromancer.

fundamentally what people want is a full caster who is good, question what bits of necromancer is best as spells and which are best as abilities?
and what stuff do we just make a feat?

 

[Neonchameleon]

I don't think even Sorcerers have the design space and I am once again referring people to Worlds Without Number's Necromancer or alternatively, to Gideon the Ninth.

Sorcerer would be fine if it had more design space though. A half-caster like Artificer might be a better base, but Artificer's theme and base abilities conflict with Necromancy. OR DO THEY?!?! You might actually be able to do a decent Necromancer as an Artificer subclass. It would be kind of a specific Necromancer, not an all-purpose one like a class could be, but it could do a much better job than Wizard Necromancer.

Sorcerers have a lot more design space than people normally realise, and there are between one and three subclasses that even attempt to use it. The divine sorcerer, the clockwork soul (which I'd need to see in play), and the Aberrant Mind which is a full bore psion. Limiting the size of spell lists in reality really expands what can be done with the sorcerer and warlock because they don't have the ability to do everything.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Limiting the size of spell lists in reality really expands what can be done with the sorcerer and warlock because they don't have the ability to do everything.

I agree, particularly re: Warlock.

The problem is the Sorcerer has two big features you can't get rid of:

1) Metamagic. This is basically a trash feature for a Necromancer. You'd want to ditch it. You can't, because it's in the base class.

2) Can cast tons and tons of spells per day. Basically as many as a Wizard or more. That's where almost all the raw power of the class is.

You don't need the latter for a Necromancer, nor do you need Full Caster. And Sorcerer's base, unalterable spell list isn't very Necromancer-oriented, being basically "Flashy Magic".

You could probably come up with some elaborate system for expending spell slots to do Necromantic stuff, but it'd be a kludge and half.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I feel I don't really agree with your vision of necromancer. To me it seems completely absurd to suggest that they would not be full casters.

That seems like a weird viewpoint. I guess you think all magic in D&D has to go via spell slot? And other people than Necromancers should have access to all the magic the Necromancer does? And full caster also suggests a broad spell list.

All of which flies in the face of virtually all other portrayals of Necromancers in fantasy fiction - and Necromancers are OFTEN portrayed in fantasy fiction, unlike, say, Clerics.

 

[Mind of tempest]

That seems like a weird viewpoint. I guess you think all magic in D&D has to go via spell slot? And other people than Necromancers should have access to all the magic the Necromancer does? And full caster also suggests a broad spell list.

All of which flies in the face of virtually all other portrayals of Necromancers in fantasy fiction - and Necromancers are OFTEN portrayed in fantasy fiction, unlike, say, Clerics.

okay, can you define the necromancer archetype so we can see each other's position?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

That seems like a weird viewpoint. I guess you think all magic in D&D has to go via spell slot?

Most of it yes. Also, necromancer is explicitly a magician, they cast spells. And in D&D people who are full time magicians are full casters. Waht you seem to be talking about is more like some sort of death knight, a necromantic version of paladin.

And other people than Necromancers should have access to all the magic the Necromancer does?

Not necessarily. There can be bespoke spells for classes and subclasses.

And full caster also suggests a broad spell list.

Again, not necessarily. But then again, I don't necessarily think that being a necromancer means that you're casting necromancy spells only.

All of which flies in the face of virtually all other portrayals of Necromancers in fantasy fiction - and Necromancers are OFTEN portrayed in fantasy fiction, unlike, say, Clerics.

What portrayals?

 

[CleverNickName]

...and the Aberrant Mind which is a full bore psion.

I feel the same way. It looks like a psion, feels like a psion, and casts like a psion (even moreso if you use the Spell Points rule in the DMG). The only thing it's missing is a silent P in the name...and that's apparently a deal-breaker for lots of folks.

(re: necromancers portrayed in fantasy fiction)

What portrayals?

One of my favorites:

 

[Neonchameleon]

I agree, particularly re: Warlock.

The problem is the Sorcerer has two big features you can't get rid of:

1) Metamagic. This is basically a trash feature for a Necromancer. You'd want to ditch it. You can't, because it's in the base class.

Not so. What you need is some sort of Necromantic Metamagic that, for example, lets the necromancer animate more, bigger, or smarter dead than usual or to throw necrotic fireballs or turn mage armour into bone armour.

2) Can cast tons and tons of spells per day. Basically as many as a Wizard or more. That's where almost all the raw power of the class is.

Which get soaked for a necromancer by things like Animate Dead.

You don't need the latter for a Necromancer, nor do you need Full Caster.

That is very much debatable.

And Sorcerer's base, unalterable spell list isn't very Necromancer-oriented, being basically "Flashy Magic".

When literally half the spell you know are tailored for a necromancer (seriously, the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul give two known spells per level) then that doesn't matter so much.