New Design: Wizards...

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

More like, "It's in the core, why don't DMs allow it?"

My guess is that designing pantheons, and the individual spheres of influence within that pantheon, is something most DMs like to do as part of designing their world. Assigning available domains based on the deities' roles is a natural extension of that.

Then, when a player decides to play a cleric, there's an instant character hook when that player decides to be a cleric of the Hearth Goddess, or the Bloody Warbringer, or the Enlightened One. And if you're a cleric of the Enlightened One, it doesn't really make sense to have the War and Ocean domains, because those don't fit the deity's role. Neither should the priests of the Bloody Warbringer be taking the Pacifism and Healing domains (though these are perfectly appropriate to his twin sister).

It's not hidden, it's not optional, it's not broken... What happened?

It's probably not broken in the core rules, but there's probably a good argument to be made that certain expansion domains shouldn't be allowed to mix.

So I don't think the situation is that players are going to the PHB, asking their DMs if they can do it and being told NO.

...

I wonder if the FRCS started folks down the "Deity Only" path and nobody ever thought to play it any other way ever again?

My experience is that, generally, it does work like the FR system (and worked like that in previous editions, as well). A player decides to play a cleric, and the DM says "Here's the list of gods, their domains, and some info about their churches. Which one do you want to use?"

I think that there's a reason that, in the section on gods (or clerics; I can't recall) in the Eberron Campaign Setting, they specifically restate the ability to take any two domains of your choice (pursuant to DM oversight), representing pulling philosophical power from the remains of the Dragon Above.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

It's probably not broken in the core rules, but there's probably a good argument to be made that certain expansion domains shouldn't be allowed to mix.

Force and anything, for example.

 

[Rechan]

I'm certainly not sure why War and Magic would qualify as "abuse" in the hands of anyone other than an elven cleric of Corellan, for example.

The War domain provides a cleric with martial proficiency and focus in his deity's favored weapon. If he doesn't have a deity, he picks his favored weapon. The war domain also gives him access to Divine Power.

An 8th level cleric with the Magic domain is treated like a 4th level wizard when casting from scrolls, wands or other spell-devices. The cleric grabs a wand of Polymorph and a scroll of stoneskin. He casts polymorph into an Ogre (4 HD, what he can assume), casts Divine Power, and Stoneskin, then picks up a huge reach weapon (said reach weapon is the weapon he picked as his god's favored weapon).

Now he has at least 20ft reach and can attack practically anything on the battlefield, including whatever offends AoOs against him. He's also fighting with the BAB of a fighter of his level, has a 27 Str (Ogre's 21 str and +6 Str from Divine Power) for +8 to attack/damage. He'll be wielding that reach weapon two handed for a total of +12 to attack and damage. Give him the Power Attack feat and with Divine Power's fighter BAB he could add +8 to his damage for +20 to damage. Combat reflexes + Cat's Grace for extra hilarity. Don't forget his full clerical spells and his stoneskin.

In other words, the Cleric is bar none the most powerful class in the game. Giving him access to any domain, with all their variable abilities and potential combos, makes him even more powerful.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

An 8th level cleric with the Magic domain is treated like a 4th level wizard when casting from scrolls, wands or other spell-devices. The cleric grabs a wand of Polymorph and a scroll of stoneskin. He casts polymorph into an Ogre (4 HD, what he can assume), casts Divine Power, and Stoneskin, then picks up a huge reach weapon.

And in a game where combat is over in three round, this cleric took 3 complete rounds to get to powered up. *shrug* Yeah, he becomes teh awesome but he burned through a ton of treasure to get there and can only do it a few times a day.

 

[Rechan]

And in a game where combat is over in three round, this cleric took 3 complete rounds to get to powered up. *shrug* Yeah, he becomes teh awesome but he burned through a ton of treasure to get there and can only do it a few times a day.

How do you figure he burned "a ton of treasure"? One charge on his Wand of Polymorph. He doesn't even need the Scroll of Stoneskin - his healing spells will handle that. So one charge of his wand and 4th one domain spell.

So two rounds prep. Unless they're ambushed, he'll stomp over anything they face at 8th level.

 

[IanArgent]

He does have to cart that orge-sized weapon along - but as an 8th level character he might have an extra-dimensional place ot keep it when he's not Large.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

How do you figure he burned "a ton of treasure"? One charge on his Wand of Polymorph. He doesn't even need the Scroll of Stoneskin - his healing spells will handle that. So one charge of his wand and 4th one domain spell.

So two rounds prep.

Well, you said a scroll of stoneskin in your post. That's what I replied to. If stoneskin is going to be used every combat in a day, the hypothetical cleric will need it as a scroll.

Round 1: Wand of polymorph
Round 2: Divine power
Round 3: Stoneskin and pick up huge reach weapon.

Unless they're ambushed, he'll stomp over anything they face at 8th level.

He'll stomp for one combat.

However, compare this to the ordained champion PrC in Complete Champion.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

The War domain provides a cleric with...

[snip]

I know what they do. We don't need examples on the potential synergy. (Although you should probably be set straight on the fact that Divine Power is available to any cleric, with or without the War domain.)

You didn't answer the question:

Why is War + Magic suddenly "abuse" in the hands of anyone OTHER than an elven cleric of Corellan, for whom this is a valid choice? (FRCS)

Are you suggesting that elves are so underpowered that it's OK for them to go rampaging all over the battlefield at 8th level, but for humans, dwarves, half-orcs, gnomes, halflings-- you've really got to clamp down on that sort of thing?

 

[Rechan]

He'll stomp for one combat.

Fine, take out the scroll of stoneskin; I pulled that out of the air as just "a combat buff". And, for "A combat" is a misnomer, as he has 3 4th level spells at 8th level, so with the War Domain he could manage 3 castings of Divine Power, which is three combats.

(Although you should probably be set straight on the fact that Divine Power is available to any cleric, with or without the War domain.)

I'm aware of this. But it being a domain spell means it doesn't take up a regular 4th level slot that could go to something else (like a second Divine Power).

Why is War + Magic suddenly "abuse" in the hands of anyone OTHER than an elven cleric of Corellan, for whom this is a valid choice? (FRCS)

Are you suggesting that elves are so underpowered that it's OK for them to go rampaging all over the battlefield at 8th level, but for humans, dwarves, half-orcs, gnomes, halflings-- you've really got to clamp down on that sort of thing?

Ah, I see the discrepancy. I wasn't suggesting that Elven Clerics of Corellan aren't muchkins with this combo or that they deserve it - I honestly wasn't aware there was a God that had both Magic and War domains. I haven't looked at the FRCS book since... six months after it came out?

My initial point was that a god with a powerful domain in its portfolio usually has weaker domains in its portfolio, so that the single powerful domain isn't coupled with other powerful domains. And the ability to just staple two powerful domains together is rife for abuse.

 

[Upper_Krust]

howdy Sir Brennen!

So here's a question: will *all* classes have "implements" somewhat equivalent to the fighter's sword and shield? What would you imagine a Druid's implements to be?

Perhaps a Druid has no such implements, but is instead 'locale relevant'.

With its feet on solid earth the Druids earth-based magic is augmented, when flying its air-based magic is augmented.

Air
Earth
Plant...when standing with grass beneath their feet.
Water