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New DM's Kit? Anybody?

Remathilis

Legend
The Cheapest Way into Essentials?

I've been getting some contradictory details here, and I'm confused.

Lets say, for sake of argument, I'm not a new DM but I'm new to 4e and want to start with Essentials. (and I have little desire to branch out beyond that for now). What book(s) do I need for...

Character Generation? (Ability scores, XP chart, Wealth per level, etc)

Races and Classes?

Skills and Feats?

Magic Items?

Traps & Hazards?

Combat and Skill Challenges

XP and Treasure?

Monsters?

I think I actually know where some of them are, but I added them for sake of completion.

I'm looking for the lowest-cost route to a complete game.
 

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AngryMojo

First Post
I'm looking for the lowest-cost route to a complete game.

By the looks of it, if you're a player you'll want your Heroes book and your Rules Compendium, so $40 MSRP.

If you're a DM you'll want the DM's kit and Monster Vault, making it %80 MSRP.

Speaking from what I've heard, I don't have the DM's kit yet.
 

GreyLord

Legend
I've been getting some contradictory details here, and I'm confused.

Lets say, for sake of argument, I'm not a new DM but I'm new to 4e and want to start with Essentials. (and I have little desire to branch out beyond that for now). What book(s) do I need for...

Character Generation? (Ability scores, XP chart, Wealth per level, etc)

Races and Classes?

Skills and Feats?

Magic Items?

Traps & Hazards?

Combat and Skill Challenges

XP and Treasure?

Monsters?

I think I actually know where some of them are, but I added them for sake of completion.

I'm looking for the lowest-cost route to a complete game.

You need at least one of the Heroes books, either the DM's Kit OR the RC, and since you still need the Monsters, the Monster Vault. The RC doesn't give you tokens, maps or modules, but those weren't things you wanted in your list. The Heroes book has magic items in it, nothing really stellar but enough to get by for a bit, and to give you an idea of what they are so you can create your own.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
You need at least one of the Heroes books, either the DM's Kit OR the RC, and since you still need the Monsters, the Monster Vault. The RC doesn't give you tokens, maps or modules, but those weren't things you wanted in your list. The Heroes book has magic items in it, nothing really stellar but enough to get by for a bit, and to give you an idea of what they are so you can create your own.

Yeah, it also depends on what he means by a "complete game".

With just the Heroes book and the DM's kit, you have an adventure, enough magic items to be able to give out a decent variety of magic items, as well as all the monsters you need to run that adventure, the maps and the tokens to represent all of them.

If you wanted to make your own adventures after that, you have everything you need except the monsters. Then you'd have to buy the Monster Vault.
 



Kurtomatic

First Post
You need at least one of the Heroes books, either the DM's Kit OR the RC, and since you still need the Monsters, the Monster Vault. The RC doesn't give you tokens, maps or modules, but those weren't things you wanted in your list. The Heroes book has magic items in it, nothing really stellar but enough to get by for a bit, and to give you an idea of what they are so you can create your own.

Yeah, it also depends on what he means by a "complete game".

With just the Heroes book and the DM's kit, you have an adventure, enough magic items to be able to give out a decent variety of magic items, as well as all the monsters you need to run that adventure, the maps and the tokens to represent all of them.

If you wanted to make your own adventures after that, you have everything you need except the monsters. Then you'd have to buy the Monster Vault.
That pretty well covers it.

Heroes of the F'n Lands has character creation/advencement, basic skills and combat rules, and some magic items. Presented from the player POV.

Dungeon Master's Book (DM's Kit) has detailed combat rules, skill challenges, traps, some more magic items, and lots and lots of DM advice regarding setting, story, meta-game, encounters, etc. Presented from the DM POV.

Rules Compendium is a comprehensive rules reference, including detailed skill and combat rules, but no 'catalog' content (feats, powers, items, monsters, etc.). Presented from a neutral reference POV.

All three books contain some overlap, particularly for skills and combat, but each redundant instance is written from a different viewpoint and level of detail. The player book has only has brief coverage of combat basics so players understand the character options, the DM book has detailed combat rules with advice for running combat at the table, and the reference book has every nook and cranny of combat listed without any other context.

Players will need at least one of the two player books, that's a really straightforward requirement. So that's $20 (-discounts) right there. Players can also benefit by having a copy of the RC handy, but that's optional.

The DM will need either the RC or DM's Kit at minimum. The DM's Book contains stuff from both 4E DMGs, and is mostly redundant with them. The RC and DM's book do have rules reference overlap, but the presentation is very different. If you are an experienced DM, and either own the 4E DMGs or don't need that kind of advice, you will get better mileage out of the RC. That's another $20 (-discounts), and you're done (except as noted below).

If you're a newbie DM, $40 (-discounts) for the DM's Kit will get you a ton of useful advice culled from both previous DMGs, two levels worth (2nd-3rd) of good adventuring material including a mini-setting (Barony of Harkenwold), and all the extra swag (token, maps, screen). The RC is again pretty handy, but optional. However, if $40 is too steep, and you think you can swing a game with web freebies and such, the RC might cover your needs in a pinch.

The real problem right now for DMs is MONSTERS. The RC is cheaper, but at least the DM's Kit has the monsters contained in Reavers of Harkenwold. A month of DDI will net you the current Monster Builder catalog, but that's not an 'essentials' solution. Monster Vault can't come soon enough for an Essentials DM. Again, this might be less of a problem for an experienced DM, but the newbies will be hurting. Still, I remember 3E's rollout in 2000 when we had to wait two months for the MM release, so this isn't much different.
 

Remathilis

Legend
So (in theory) the quickest way into the game is HoFL + DM kit + MV, with HoFK and RC being nice, but optional?

Is there anything in the RC that ISN'T rehashed in HoFL + DM kit?
 

Kurtomatic

First Post
Is there anything in the RC that ISN'T rehashed in HoFL + DM kit?
I don't think the DM's Book includes some of the esoterica like flight or mounted combat (I don't have it handy, atm). HotFL and the DM's Kit are truly 'essentials'-focussed products that are about hitting the ground running.

What the RC is really good at is covering corner cases and settling (or creating!) RAW arguments. So it does absolutely include unique material, but its pretty rulesy, sparse matrix stuff. It represents the state-of-the-raw, so to speak.

It comes down to a matter of play style and utility. The RC devotes several pages detailing each skill for a variety of specific checks. The DM's Book has several pages of general advice about how to present and adjudicate skill checks.

An experienced DM like you, Remathilis, could certainly manage the game with either the RC or DM's Kit. Would you rather have a kit that helps you get the ball rolling and then gets out of the way, letting you improvise the nitpicky stuff on the fly (DM's Kit)? Or do you have all the material and chops to get started already, and just want a book to back you up and fine-tune your game (RC)?
 

TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
I think for the truly new DM the following sequance was planned/anticipated:

1 Red box. Learn the very basics, get charectes to level 2
2 DM kit: Learn to really DM, get charecters to level 4
3 Monster Vault: Really be able to do your own thing, get charecters to levels 5 or 6 with included adventures, and then run things from there on your own
4 Rules Compendium (possibly optional): The one at the table reference
5 Netir Vale guide and NV monster vault (optional): campaign building in the default setting.

Of course, the above implies the RC came out to soon.
 

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