New Fighting Styles (was: Berserker Fighting Style?)

[The Shadow]

EDIT: This thread has expanded into new fighting styles generally. This was the original post:

I just had a thought of how to build a barbarian.

Supposing there's a Berserker fighting style like so:

Level 1: Rage: You can fly into a berserk rage for the remainder of a combat by spending an expertise die. While enraged, Deadly Strike damage is maximized, but Parried damage is recorded, and you receive half of it when the combat ends. You take -2 to AC while enraged.

(There might need to be a rule for coming out of a rage too. Ideas?)

Level 3: Cleave

Level 5: Lethal Reflexes: You can spend an expertise die to take an extra reaction in a round. (Or maybe Jab would do just as well?)

Combine that with a suitable background - would Uncanny Dodge work as a background trait, or too much? - and I think that's a start for a barbarian. Your thoughts?

(To clarify, 5e Uncanny Dodge would be something like immunity to being surprised, and maybe cancelling disadvantage from being attacked by an unseen opponent?)

 

[jrowland]

I just had a thought of how to build a barbarian.

Good start. You should listen to the WotC/Penny Arcade podcast released today HERE. and download the character sheets (notably Binwin's) for Mearls off-the-cuff take on something like Barbarian Rage. Its also discussed here at Enworld


...and apparently you have already seen all that. Mod, please delete this post

 

[The Shadow]

...and apparently you have already seen all that. Mod, please delete this post

Hey, no worries. I just felt the off-the-cuff version was a bit mathematically lacking.

 

[Rune]

I just had a thought of how to build a barbarian.

Supposing there's a Berserker fighting style like so:

Level 1: Rage: You can fly into a berserk rage for the remainder of a combat by spending an expertise die. While enraged, Deadly Strike damage is maximized, but Parried damage is recorded, and you receive half of it when the combat ends. You take -2 to AC while enraged.

(There might need to be a rule for coming out of a rage too. Ideas?)

Level 3: Cleave

Level 5: Lethal Reflexes: You can spend an expertise die to take an extra reaction in a round. (Or maybe Jab would do just as well?)

Combine that with a suitable background - would Uncanny Dodge work as a background trait, or too much? - and I think that's a start for a barbarian. Your thoughts?

(To clarify, 5e Uncanny Dodge would be something like immunity to being surprised, and maybe cancelling disadvantage from being attacked by an unseen opponent?)

Very interesting, but I think it would be easier (and model the temporary DR better) if Parry was also maxed (but the barbarian would still take half of it in damage when s/he calmed down).

 

[The Shadow]

Very interesting, but I think it would be easier (and model the temporary DR better) if Parry was also maxed (but the barbarian would still take half of it in damage when s/he calmed down).

Hm, interesting. It would definitely be simpler, but I quail a bit at just how much DR that would add up to at higher level.

I'm getting ideas for other fighting styles, so I may just retitle the thread.

 

[Rune]

Hm, interesting. It would definitely be simpler, but I quail a bit at just how much DR that would add up to at higher level.

I'm getting ideas for other fighting styles, so I may just retitle the thread.

A non-issue, I think. The barbarian can't use it to absorb too much, or he'll die when half of the total comes back on him--all at once--when the rage is done.

 

[The Shadow]

Now here's a stab (heh) at a Paladin fighting style. Combine with a Paladin specialty to get things like curing diseases and so on.

For simplicity, I'll focus on the traditional LG paladin, feel free to change things to taste for a wider concept.

Level 1: Smite Evil: When you make a Deadly Strike against fiends or undead, maximize the damage from the expertise di(c)e.

(This could be "Smite Enemy" generally, and perhaps apply to a ranger's favored enemy and so on as well.)

Level 3: Divine Grace: You may roll a single expertise die and add it to a saving throw. (Cap the bonus to your Cha modifier, if desired, but I think it's more interesting not to, since it's more situational.)

Level 5: Lay on Hands: You may spend an expertise die to roll one of your hit dice at once - the hit points may be received either by you or by someone you touch.

And here's an attempt at the Paladin specialty:

Level 1: Detect Evil: You can sense fiends, undead, and other supernatural evils within a range of 60'. (NOT ordinary people who are evil-aligned!)

Level 3: Blessed: You are immune to fear and disease. You can also cure someone of disease once a week. Prereq: Ability to Detect Evil or Smite Evil.

Level 6: Call Mount: Just what it says on the tin. Prereq: Ability to Detect Evil or Smite Evil.

And here's another, inspired by my 'Smite Enemy' thought above:

Monster Hunter

There is a particular type of foe you are specialized in hunting and killing. (Or destroying, as the case may be!) The foe type can't be too broad, blah blah blah.

Level 1: Smite Foe: When you make a Deadly Strike against your foe, maximize the expertise di(c)e.

Level 3: Knows Their Tricks: When making a saving throw against your foe's attacks, you may roll a single expertise die and add it to your save. Alternatively, you may spend a single expertise die to take half damage from a special attack.

Level 5: Relentless Hunter: When you attack your foe and miss, you may do a Glancing Blow with maximum damage.

 

[The Shadow]

A non-issue, I think. The barbarian can't use it to absorb too much, or he'll die when half of the total comes back on him--all at once--when the rage is done.

...Good point. Okay, works for me.

 

[Li Shenron]

Level 1: Rage: You can fly into a berserk rage for the remainder of a combat by spending an expertise die. While enraged, Deadly Strike damage is maximized, but Parried damage is recorded, and you receive half of it when the combat ends. You take -2 to AC while enraged.

Too good! The -2 to AC balances it somehow, but maximizing damage is almost as good as having twice as many expertise dice per round (only if you use them for additional damage of course), for the price of spending just one dice in the first round.

Also, it is obvious that nearly no one would just use Parry during a rage with this penalty, so the penalty will never apply, it will only have the effect of not making you Parry.

Overall I'm undecided if there is still room for Barbarian as a class. I think there is but I'm not sure... Maybe Rage could be better implemented with a mechanic that works on a daily basis, but can be controlled on a round basis. I mean for instance measured in rounds/day but allowing to divide those rounds freely (still with some limitations about e.g. not being always able to willingly end your rage).

Level 5: Lethal Reflexes: You can spend an expertise die to take an extra reaction in a round.

This sounds just fine!

Combine that with a suitable background - would Uncanny Dodge work as a background trait, or too much? - and I think that's a start for a barbarian. Your thoughts?

(To clarify, 5e Uncanny Dodge would be something like immunity to being surprised, and maybe cancelling disadvantage from being attacked by an unseen opponent?)

I definitely like having UD in the game... But as a Trait? Probably not, at least because so far all Traits represent something useful outside combat and actually even outside exploration. Traits being part of Background means that they are the results of what you do when not adventuring, so it feels awkward to create Traits that give you benefits in combat! Although the ability of not being surprised does look good as something developed in your everyday life in this case. Thus, I'm not sure...

 

[The Shadow]

Too good! The -2 to AC balances it somehow, but maximizing damage is almost as good as having twice as many expertise dice per round (only if you use them for additional damage of course), for the price of spending just one dice in the first round.

What would you suggest, then? Maybe "advantage" on expertise damage?

Would "disadvantage" on Parried damage be fair?

Also, it is obvious that nearly no one would just use Parry during a rage with this penalty, so the penalty will never apply, it will only have the effect of not making you Parry.

I'm not so sure about nobody using Parry under these circumstances... You're still being spared half the damage in the long run - and all of it in the short run. You'll parry if the damage will endanger you that round.

Plus, even if someone chooses *not* to Parry, they'll still be taking more damage than an equivalent-level fighter, which suits the fluff fine.

Overall I'm undecided if there is still room for Barbarian as a class. I think there is but I'm not sure... Maybe Rage could be better implemented with a mechanic that works on a daily basis, but can be controlled on a round basis. I mean for instance measured in rounds/day but allowing to divide those rounds freely (still with some limitations about e.g. not being always able to willingly end your rage).

I see no reason why the Barbarian as we knew it from 1e UA to 3.5e couldn't be represented with a fighting style and a background. Possibly a specialty, but I don't think it'll be necessary.

If it's going to be a class, it needs to be something a good deal more than a modified fighter. Because there's already ways to make a modified fighter.

I definitely like having UD in the game... But as a Trait? Probably not, at least because so far all Traits represent something useful outside combat and actually even outside exploration. Traits being part of Background means that they are the results of what you do when not adventuring, so it feels awkward to create Traits that give you benefits in combat!

Yeah, I know what you mean. That's why I was unsure.

Although the ability of not being surprised does look good as something developed in your everyday life in this case. Thus, I'm not sure...

Exactly. It's kind of a borderline case. I note that Miglin, the Wormwrithings guide in the adventure, has the ability to keep the party from being surprised, though it doesn't explain why.

Oddly, being surprised less was an ability of the 1e *ranger*. Of course, there was no barbarian in the 1e PHB.