New Forgotten Realms designed by FR haters?

[Shazman]

Well, I don't know about the rulebooks, but prior to 4E there were all kinds of comments from the designers that bascially did say that certain things about the game or certain ways of playing the game were 'badwrongfun".

 

[Spatula]

There is no shortage of comic book writers, and they all manage to craft good stories in a vast shared world.

But... superhero comics are continuously rebooting individual characters (all the time) or (not quite as often) the entire shared universe. Because they face the same problems. And they get the same flack from the fans for it.

At the end of the day, the writers are there to write what appeals to them, and to get a paycheck. Satisfying the whims of obsessive collectors isn't going to appeal to the writer unless the writer is an obsessive collector himself, like Mark Waid.

 

[Cadfan]

Of course it isn't.

But your post explains a lot. Thanks for your "comment", Cadfan!

If Job A pays $50 an hour for 10 hours of work, and Job B pays $50 an hour for 10 hours of work while also requiring 10 unpaid hours outside of the job, then Job B is really paying $25 an hour for 20 hours.

Therefore, all things being equal, I only take Job B if I haven't got anything more profitable to do with those 20 hours.

An accountant should understand that, as should any small business owner or freelancer.

 

[Piratecat]

Enough, guys.

 

[Scribble]

And how is the different from authors writing for Eberron? I just don't see the difference between reading a lot, and reading...almost as much.

Well, to begin with, I don't believe I ever said it was? I think you're putting words in my mouth there man. But- the difference between a lot and even "almost as much" (which I still don't think I agree that everron has anywhere NEAR the amount of info 20+ years of source matrial, novels, short stories, and articles has given the Realms.) can mean the difference between what's in your head, and somethign else.

And, And, unless they're offering a finished manuscript to the publisher, why can't you just write your story based on the relevant material? If you absolutely want to change a detail, you can discuss it with the publisher, and I don't see a problem with it unless you want to make major "shake-ups" to the whole are your story is based in. And it's not like the Realms didn't get its share of RSEs in novels, right?

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. Sorry maybe it's early and I'm out of it or something.

But if you're asking why can't you just write within the limitations? Well, again, because the limitations don't allow you to tell the story that's in your head. Mayeb I'm having a hard time explaining it. I'm pretty sure though that if you ask just about any artist whether they'd preffer more limits and guides to their work or less, they'd choose less. Sometimes a story just wants to be told. The more limits you place on it, the more times you have to change it, the less you feel like you're telling the story that actually wanted to be told, and the less interest or drive you have for it. I'm sorry I can't really explain it any other way then that. The less drive you have for it, the more you feel like you're just filling out a form. You do it because it has to get done sure, but is that REALLY what we want from authors of a setting that's entirely imaginary?

You're correct -- indeed, professional writing is mostly about "doing your job", whether you're inspired or not. You just need to sit down and write, or you'll never meet deadlines.

Sure, all jobs are to an extent. But I feel the more creative freedom an author has, the more he'l be able to bring to the table. I've seen it a ton of times in books, movies, games... When a creative person does something just to "meet the deadline" you can really tell it. It's boring, it's formulaic, and usually un-original.

Again that's really not something I want in a product designed to be used in a creative capacity.

Now, speaking of fantasy authors who write for existing settings, in some cases you probably "connect" to the setting and feel more inspired than in others, but the fact is that you can't moan and groan to the publisher about not being able to write because the setting doesn't inspire you enough and therefore it needs to change.

What's with words like "moan and groan?" I feel like all statements like that do is attempt to sidestep the conversation by painting people as childish or spoiled. It's possible for someone to speak their feelings about something without "moaning and groaning."

Of course, if several of your "co-workers" feel the same way, there may be something wrong, but if the reason is simply that you don't want to do research before you start writing, you are probably not of the type fit to do it for living.

Maybe the difference isn't that they just "don't want to do the research" as opposed to they don't have the time/ability to do all that reseach in a given day, or for a given product.

Employee imput is one thing, but it's a bit different in the public institutions -- feedback is great, but rarely leads to any major changes. After all, once everyone has done something in a certain way for the last thirty, forty years, it's useless to try to reason about how it could be done in a better and more efficient way (I've tried this many times, believe me).

Hrmm... this is pretty contrary to almost every company I've worked with. The statement that "the only thing constant is change" comes from the fact that things in business change almost on a daily basis. Sure people might not like change, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Anyway, your company is clearly a private business, and they listen to their customers and employees; that's great. But I can't imagine a Microsoft freelancer telling Bill Gates that "I'm not inspired by this Vista and I need to read too many manuals, so how about we scrap it all and start to work on another OS".

If freelancers start finding it way to hard to code for Vista, and find they can do what they want to do much more easily with, say, I dunno- Apple? You had better believe gates (well Ballmer more then likely) is going to listen. A system is only as good as the programs that run on it.

If the coders feel it's easier to do what they want to do for Apples, that's more incentive for people to switch to Apple. That's not something Microsoft wants!

As far as FR is concerned, apparently WoTC thought that enough FR fans (and customers who were not fans) were unhappy with FR, and took a risk by turning it all upside down. New stories aplenty, sure, but to me it seems (and this is all based on anecdotal evidence, but anyway) that the risk didn't pay off as well as they thought it would (hence the "three books per setting" policy, methinks, at least for FR -- I suspect Eberron might get more support if it sells better).

I don't think that policy has anything to do with whether the setting is well received or not. I'm pretty sure that idea comes from an attempt at less product line redundancy, and less fan "sectioning."

When you market a product for a specific "line" it's really most likely only going to be bought by fans of that line. If it says Eberron FR people probably aren't going to buy it. So you're splitting your resources. You now have to create products for FR fans, Eberron fans, and fans of just generic D&D.

The way they have it now, they only have to do "specific" marketing for 2 books a year, the rest is marketed towards ALL players of D&D, including the specific campaign fans.

Sure, if Eberron becoems the most popular setting we might see a few more articles then other sets in Dragon/Dunegon, but I very much doubt we'll be seeing an extended line of books.

Well, do YOU consider the Marco Volo-goodness or Demihumans/Priests/Wizards of the Realms actually relevant products containing much Realmslore? A lot of the stuff they produced during that era are not actually high on my "must-own-and-use" list. Feel free to argue about it, but if we asked a thousand FR fans who've been aboard since those days, I don't think their opinion would vary a lot from mine.

Don't know and don't really care. My point was that since they exist, they exist as part of the FR canon, whether people thought it was "good" canon, or "bad" canon. Lot's of people think Drizzt is lame. Doesn't mean he's not part of the FR history.

 

[El Mahdi]

"Meesa hava big kitty and two pokey-sticks! But are vewwy lonely. Awwww." - Driz'zzz Binks.

That, Sir, is a Court Martial offense. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Primal]

Well, to begin with, I don't believe I ever said it was? I think you're putting words in my mouth there man. But- the difference between a lot and even "almost as much" (which I still don't think I agree that everron has anywhere NEAR the amount of info 20+ years of source matrial, novels, short stories, and articles has given the Realms.) can mean the difference between what's in your head, and somethign else.

I didn't mean to -- that was a generic comment based on what's become a mantra ("Burden of Lore and Mary Sues needed to go") to many who defend the changes. I'm sorry if it sounded like that.

I still stand behind my point that Eberron has thousands of pages of quality lore (at least that's what my friends playing in Eberron say) vs. a similar amount in FR; of course, if we count *everything* that's ever published for FR (including all the material that was later corrected/"retconned" by FR Lorelords or outright ignored by fans), it's different.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. Sorry maybe it's early and I'm out of it or something.

But if you're asking why can't you just write within the limitations? Well, again, because the limitations don't allow you to tell the story that's in your head. Mayeb I'm having a hard time explaining it. I'm pretty sure though that if you ask just about any artist whether they'd preffer more limits and guides to their work or less, they'd choose less. Sometimes a story just wants to be told. The more limits you place on it, the more times you have to change it, the less you feel like you're telling the story that actually wanted to be told, and the less interest or drive you have for it. I'm sorry I can't really explain it any other way then that. The less drive you have for it, the more you feel like you're just filling out a form. You do it because it has to get done sure, but is that REALLY what we want from authors of a setting that's entirely imaginary?

In the end, most authors are faced with the fact that you always more or less write according to limitations imposed on you by the publisher; if I submitted a FR novel to WoTC, I'm fairly sure that I'd have to rewrite large parts of it, or they might even do it themselves (as happened in editing with many of Ed's novels; 'Spellfire' was mangled so badly that IIRC Ed didn't even recognise some parts of it). That's what you have to accept, if you want to become an aspiring author. Even if you wrote a novel set in your own world, in very few cases it would be published "as is".

When you do something you enjoy for living, such as writing RPG stuff or fantasy fiction, it's not the same as writing material for your campaign or . If you still can get satisfaction and feel inspired, that's great; but professional authors can't always wait for the inspiration to hit them, or argue that something in the setting must change or they can't write the stuff they were hired to do. I once read Stephen King saying that to be a successful author you need to write every day -- whether you feel like it or not.

FR and Eberron may be imaginary worlds, but I wonder how many fans they would have without the depth and quality of lore that's both "accurate" and internally consistent?

Sure, all jobs are to an extent. But I feel the more creative freedom an author has, the more he'l be able to bring to the table. I've seen it a ton of times in books, movies, games... When a creative person does something just to "meet the deadline" you can really tell it. It's boring, it's formulaic, and usually un-original.

Again that's really not something I want in a product designed to be used in a creative capacity.

Not necessarily. Using FR as an example, I can't really recommend too many novels published during the first ten years when the authors had more "creative freedom" (often resulting in contradictory or simply bad stuff). For example, Anthony was apparently given "free reins" with 'Escape from Undermountain', even though Waterdeep and Undermountain was pretty well detailed in several FR accessories, and the end product conflicts canon on every page. If they had limited his creative input, I believe the novel would have been better, or at least more coherent and consistent with the existing Realmslore ('Once Around the Realms' is in a league of its own, but let's not get there). Then there were novels and accessories that detailed unexplored areas; this, as we know, resulted in RW cultures being more or less "shoehorned" into FR among other things. Boring? Formulaic? Yes and yes, even though the authors (to my knowledge) had free hands with most of those areas.

If this all comes down to "better creative results without any restraints", wouldn't that kind of imply that details and history are bad for RPG settings? And that all those setting-specific DDi articles shouldn't be published, as well? Especially as you can't expect every freelancer to commit to the subscription.

What's with words like "moan and groan?" I feel like all statements like that do is attempt to sidestep the conversation by painting people as childish or spoiled. It's possible for someone to speak their feelings about something without "moaning and groaning."

Alright, that was meant as a sarcastic comment; of course people are free to discuss their feelings.

Maybe the difference isn't that they just "don't want to do the research" as opposed to they don't have the time/ability to do all that reseach in a given day, or for a given product.

Well, then there's a problem; I can understand why it's different for freelancers, but if designers on regular payroll do not find time to do research on subjects they write about... maybe it's time for change? I mean, adding a few consultants/specialists to their payroll, or using them as freelancers would help a lot. Building a wiki in co-operation with the fans (since fans do them anyway) for each campaign setting would also help tremendously in the long run.

Also, when you're researching a subject, you don't need to memorize everything -- just find the things that matter. Whether you're writing an essay or article, you need to use reliable sources, but not everything you read -- if an average student can do that, why couldn'tRPG authors?

Hrmm... this is pretty contrary to almost every company I've worked with. The statement that "the only thing constant is change" comes from the fact that things in business change almost on a daily basis. Sure people might not like change, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

It depends. Some of my friends work in (privately-owned) companies in which employee imput is not really expected or appreciated. Also, change for the sake of change, especially constant change, is not necessarily a good thing; there should be a logical reason for change.

Anyway, customers are another thing, but in public libraries it's often different, i.e. the customer is usually wrong. I'll give you a couple of examples here. Not so long ago there was a customer feedback research conducted in my library about should we arrange fiction by genres or not. The result was that overwhelming majority of the patrons said "Yes, I want more genres!", but the assistant chief librarian (surprised by the result) thought it would be too much work, and told everyone: "We're professionals and they are not, which means that in this case their opinion does not matter. Period." Another example are RPGs, which are usually (in my country) shelved in the youth and children department, regardless of the fact some of them contain material that would automatically land them in the lending department if they were not games ("It's a game, so it's for kids!"). When I vehemently argued that they should be transferred (not only because of the content, but also because no gamer I know would look for them in their current location), I was told that it's a "good idea" (and this happened like four years ago). The thing is, anything tying up library resources is often seen as bad, even if it would be logical change that would benefit the patrons and/or staff...

If freelancers start finding it way to hard to code for Vista, and find they can do what they want to do much more easily with, say, I dunno- Apple? You had better believe gates (well Ballmer more then likely) is going to listen. A system is only as good as the programs that run on it.

If the coders feel it's easier to do what they want to do for Apples, that's more incentive for people to switch to Apple. That's not something Microsoft wants!

And what if they find MAC OS just as difficult and complex? And, in case, if they switch from Microsoft to Apple, they probably need to spend quite a lot of time in researching the code before they can start working on it, right?

I don't think that policy has anything to do with whether the setting is well received or not. I'm pretty sure that idea comes from an attempt at less product line redundancy, and less fan "sectioning."

When you market a product for a specific "line" it's really most likely only going to be bought by fans of that line. If it says Eberron FR people probably aren't going to buy it. So you're splitting your resources. You now have to create products for FR fans, Eberron fans, and fans of just generic D&D.

The way they have it now, they only have to do "specific" marketing for 2 books a year, the rest is marketed towards ALL players of D&D, including the specific campaign fans.

Well, I'm not exactly convinced this strategy worked with FR that well. Of course, I don't know the sales figures, but my educated guess is that most "old guard" fans didn't buy the books. Whether they managed to hook in enough new customers, I can't say, but I seriously doubt it. IIRC, they didn't announce this "three-books-per-setting" policy until FR vented their anger at the changes. Now, it may or may nor have anything to do with it,but before that they said that additional books are possible, if the sales are good.

Sure, if Eberron becoems the most popular setting we might see a few more articles then other sets in Dragon/Dunegon, but I very much doubt we'll be seeing an extended line of books.

I wouldn't be suprised, because originally the FR designers promised the same for FR if it sells enough.

Don't know and don't really care. My point was that since they exist, they exist as part of the FR canon, whether people thought it was "good" canon, or "bad" canon. Lot's of people think Drizzt is lame. Doesn't mean he's not part of the FR history.

Some of that lore has already been "retconned" and patched up, i.e. there are many products that had problems with internal consistency and canon and they no longer contain "accurate" canon lore. Plus, I don't know if anyone actually uses stuff from products like Marco Volo-adventures -- I don't. And neither do I use Drizzt, even though I don't think he's "lame" (if a PC insisted on finding him, it might be another matter). And even if I wrote a novel about a drow swordsman in the Silver Marches, I doubt I would use direct references to Drizzt. Neither do I think "But what will Drizzt or Alustriel or Bruenor do about it?" whenever I'm running an adventure there.

 

[Primal]

I'd say, in FR's case, they agreed that something should be done.

And then they did it. So we have this thread.

As for hiring more staff... I doubt that WotC can afford to keep a full-time Realmslore Keeper on staff, given recent layoffs.

-O

I'm not entirely sure that it was better than using one of the FR Lorelords as a freelance consultant, or even building a Wiki in co-operation with the fans (just as I suggested).

I wonder how the designers will get their facts straight with 4E Eberron, if they're really so busy that they can't find the time to research any material?

 

[Mouseferatu]

if they're really so busy that they can't find the time to research any material?

I've been trying to avoid getting back into this, but that's not what I said. In fact, I very clearly said that a certain amount of research was expected and even demanded. Please don't take my words out of context like this.

 

[Dausuul]

I am not and have never been a Realms fan, so I can't claim a personal connection here.

I will say this: The more lore is piled onto a setting, the less interested I am in running a game there, even if I like the core setting concept. I love the concept of Dark Sun, but I wouldn't want to run a game in the setting as it was by the end of 2E - and not just because the new lore sucked, although it did suck most grievously. The mere existence of the lore is something I don't like and don't want. It's like listening to a clever joke that is dissected and explained at laborious length; the original funny is lost.

What I want from a setting is inspiration, space to build, and some basic material to kick-start scenarios - "This is the sort of stuff you'll find if you go to the city of Urik." I want the setting to pose questions, not answer them. As DM, answering the questions is my job.

From this standpoint, the 4E Realms are a big success for me. To the extent that the core of the setting appeals to me - which isn't a lot, but isn't nothing - I no longer have to clean away the accumulated cruft of decades. I'm still not inclined to run a game there, but it is now a "Nah, probably not" rather than a "No, no, and hell no!"