New Gnomish Favoured Class?

[dcas]

Fighter. Why make them different from dwarves?

 

[MarkB]

Fighter. Why make them different from dwarves?

I suspect a few dwarves would be eager to provide quite pointed arguments on that matter.

 

[Nyaricus]

As such, I feel it is unlikely that this poll will alter much more in its results, however many more days or weeks you leave it up. As such, I suggest the closing of this poll and the openning of the next poll, be it Half-Elf or Halfling.

All in favor?

I'll post up the halfling poll within the next half-hour to hour, hopefully

As an aside, this poll is to determine new favored class(es) for the core races from amongst those 20-level classes released for 3.5e by WotC. I do not recall an Ilusionist class as having been released for 3.5e or even 3.0e. If it has, which Complete, Race, or other 3.5e WotC book was it in? If it has not been released for such, it has no point in being on this poll and so - despite what some are stating - should not be listed on this poll.

Exactly.

 

[Nyeshet]

Both Elves and Gnomes had four classes amongst the multitude that overwhelmingly gained support as a favored class with a few minor runner-ups following those. Dwarves seems - at present - to be a bit of an exception, having only a single overwhelming favored class chosen. If the other races also result in 3-4 favored classes then perhaps a new poll can be done after the other races are completed - one that excludes Fighter - to determine what other favored classes best suit the Dwarf. Then we could just assume 4 favored classes for each race.

Dwarf Favored Classes: Fighter, ?Cleric?, ?Knight? (Clr & Knt were the top runner-ups.)
Elven Favored Classes: Ranger, Duskblade, Sorcerer, Wizard
Gnome Favored Classes: Artificer, Bard, Beguiler, Wizard
*Halfling: ???

* (I'm guessing Rogue and Bard as two of the main classes for the Halfling. Both capture their feel quite well, I think. Some might choose Spellthief, I suppose, and others might choose Scout perhaps, but I am not as certain about that last one.)

As the original inspiration for Halflings was the Hobbit, I am planning on voting Rogue, although I admit that Bard is quite tempting as a choice for them. I think it suits their current edition descriptive text bettter (sort of gypsyish wanders and occational thieves). I might change my mind (again) between now and then.

 

[Vocenoctum]

It's an arbitrary distinction, and frankly the illusionist "class" in D&D is just a chose that any other gets to take, ni a different skin. Fighters choose their feats, clerics choose domains, etc. It's all options, and all on the surface.

In any case, I'm not trying to pick on you, so please don't think of that way if perceived - I'm simply highlighting why it's arbitrary to include the illusionist "class".
--N

It's arbitrary to include any of the classes. What's a sorcerer but a modified wizard then?

The point is, for quite a few folks, Illusionist IS the choice, but you're saying it's inclusion is arbitrary, so it skews the poll. Beguiler is just a tweaked warmage which is just a tweaked sorcerer, etc etc. Where does the line go?

Assume that of these;
74 Artificer
54 Beguiler
54 Wizard

Half of each really meant "illusionist" and 91 votes make illusionist the clear winner. Assuming that isn't very good poll-taking, but neither is leaving out an option that to everyone else IS the clear winner.

For me, since you decided that Illusionist wasn't important enough, I chose Archivist.

 

[Nyeshet]

Please. Tell me where I can find this "Illusionist" class that so many keep harping about. Is it in a Race, Complete, Environment, or Setting Suppliment book? Maybe it was a single class found in some adventure module? Please, let me know which WotC 3.5e book this "Illusionist" class might be found in? What is its BAB? Does it have a good Will save? What about its Fort and Refl saves? How many skill points does it get per level? What other level based specials does it get? What is its 3.5e spell list comprised of? Were there any spells in the Spell Compendium that stated they were for this "Ilusionist" class, or - like the Warlock and the Incarnate classes - was it gipped somewhat by that book?

When you can point towards an official 3.5e WotC book that has a 20-level "Illusionist" class (and not the Wizard (Illusionist) option, for as you seem to think that does not qualify neither shall I consider it) then I shall accept that it should have been listed on this list of class candidites for favored class for Gnome.

Oh, and don't just give us the title of the book it is in. We want the page number as well, so we can read it ourselves and decide if it should have been the Gnome's favored class.

(Sorry if that came across as harsh, but I have lost count of how many times I and others have pointed out that there is no Illusionist class in any 3.5e WotC book. These polls only concern themselves with 3.5e. If you want to play an earlier edition then that is your perogative. If you want to start a poll asking about favored classes for the various races in earlier editions, that is also your perogative - although as best I can tell Favored Classes did not exist prior to 3e. Until WotC creates an Illusionist class for 3.5e that option is neither viable nor even qualified to be placed on this poll.)

 

[Vocenoctum]

When you can point towards an official 3.5e WotC book that has a 20-level "Illusionist" class (and not the Wizard (Illusionist) option, for as you seem to think that does not qualify neither shall I consider it) then I shall accept that it should have been listed on this list of class candidites for favored class for Gnome.

As I said, quite a few people consider Wizard(Illusionist) to be Illusionist, and the favored class for Gnomes. Life goes on. As well, it's never listed as Wizard (Illusionist) but simply "Illusionist" that I have noticed.

Oh, and don't just give us the title of the book it is in. We want the page number as well, so we can read it ourselves and decide if it should have been the Gnome's favored class.

(Sorry if that came across as harsh, but I have lost count of how many times I and others have pointed out that there is no Illusionist class in any 3.5e WotC book. These polls only concern themselves with 3.5e. If you want to play an earlier edition then that is your perogative. If you want to start a poll asking about favored classes for the various races in earlier editions, that is also your perogative - although as best I can tell Favored Classes did not exist prior to 3e. Until WotC creates an Illusionist class for 3.5e that option is neither viable nor even qualified to be placed on this poll.)

It's as viable as it was in 3e, isn't it? The change to Bard was made in 3.5, and folks disagree with it. The fact you choose to not acknowledge it as an option for "Favored Class" doesn't mean it's a universal declaration and that everyone that disagrees is wrong. It's a game afterall.

ETA: It's also not the same as a fighter having specific feat choices, but more akin to a specific Psion subclass. If a race was built around mind reading, "telepath" would be a viable FC option as opposed to general Psion, IMO, and Illusionist is the same.

 

[Nyeshet]

Wizard specialization is akin to specialization in any class that offers options:


Psion specialization (as you've already stated)
Cleric specialization (domain selection)
Fighter specialization (bonus fighter feats)
Ranger specialization (combat styles / feats)
Monk specialization (combat style / feats)
Rogue specialization at higher levels (rogue specials)

What does a wizard gain / lose from specializing? Is it really that massive compared to the gains / losses that other classes experience when they specialize? A Ranger must choose to either focus on melee or ranged combat, and that choice will determine the feel and use of their character for the duration of their existence. Clerics must choose a deity - limiting their domain choice - and then two domains from 3-4 selections. They lose access to some domain specials and spells and gain others in their place. When taking feats they have the option of divine feats or non-divine feats (ie: all others for which they qualify). Should they choose divine they must further choose whether most / all of their divine feats will be focused on Turning Undead or using Turing attempts for other purposes. Either way the feel of their character and its future uses are limited in one sense while empowered in another sense - all due to their specilization. How does this differ from a Wizard that chooses to Specialize in a school at the cost of one or two other schools, gaining slightly more spells in the one school while losing the use of entire schools of magic in the process.

So, from that perspective, how can you really state that choosing to specialize is anything other than a class feature - gaining access to some features at the cost of losing access to other features? You are still the same class, just focused in a particular area.

Your earlier post strongly suggested that Wizard (Illusionist) was not the same as Illusionist - thus my comments on giving me and others the book and page number that this "Illusionist" class appears in. You also stated that whenever someone on this thread stated "Illusionist" as their choice they were not choosing "Wizard (Illusionist)" but instead some pre-3e class that does not exist in the current edition and thus has no place on this poll.

Then, in your second post you stated that Wizard (Illusionist) was, in fact, the class that everyone has been stating they are voting for when they stated "Illusionist." From that view then all Wizard votes count towards "Illusionist" and none of the Beguiler, Bard, etc votes count towards it. After all, they do mean Illusionist in the sense of Wizard (Illusionist),. right? But that is not what you said in your first statement at all.

Illusionist should not now nor ever be on this poll, as it is not a class in its own right - merely a specialization of the Wizard class. So either all / most Wizard votes count towards Wizard (Illusionist), or Illusionist is a class in an of itself that has not yet been published for 3.5e (nor even for 3e). Either way it is not a viable option for this poll - which focuses on current and complete classes - not past edition or sub-sets of classes.

 

[Nyaricus]

Okay, I reallt think that it's time for that Halfling thread *gets working furiously*

 

[Sejs]

Wow, Artificer won out in the end.


*shakes a gelatinous fist* Curse you, silent majority! Curse yooooou!