NEW GRIM-N-GRITTY D&D RULES for review

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

In my other thread in HR, I tried to implement the latest d20 mechanics into 3e. Now I've got a new, hopefully simpler, idea for making a grittier D&D game. I'm not proposing everyone switch to this or that it is right for everybody, but it is something I am interested in trying out in my game. So if I could get some critiques as to whether this system is viable, I would appreciate it! Thanks!

How about this for a quick and easy compromise grim-n-gritty, combat is deadly type of game?

Everything in the game stays the same, except:

Hit Points = CON + Class HD (at 1st level only, maxed) + size modifier + Toughness feats + misc. modifiers.

NOTE: CON modifier is not added to HP, just Fort saves/skills/ability checks. You may only take the Toughness feat once per level, and not more times than your CON modifier (so a PC with an 18 CON could take Toughness four times).

You only get class HD as a 1st level character, so the type of class you start in determines how many extra HP you get for the rest of your character's life.

Assuming a CON score of 10 with no toughness feats:
The average commoner, sorcerer or wizard will have 14 hit points.
The average expert, rogue or bard will have 16 hit points.
The average warrior, cleric or druid will have 18 hit points.
The average fighter, paladin, ranger will have 20 hit points.
The average barbarian will have 22 hit points.

The max hit points anyone could probably have at 1st level would be a human barbarian with one toughness feat and an 18 CON. He would have 33 hit points (18 CON + 12 HP + 3 from Toughness).

When you level, you gain class features as normal, except no new hit points are rolled.

Magic damage would not scale per level to account for the lower hit points, so a fireball or lightning bolt would only ever do 5d6 damage. Spells that give you extra attacks at higher levels (like magic missile) would still gain the extra attacks, but not any increase in base damage.

Armor provides AC as normal 3e.

Any thoughts on this? It seems even easier to implement than the VP/WP mechanics...

Together with DNDChick's Critical Effects chart, combat would be scary as hell, and the game's power level would stay on par with the middle (generally considered to be the "most fun") levels, since hit points can't go through the roof.

 

[UnDfind]

Yay!

That sounds fun! A game where the characters can be level 80,000,000; but still be killed by a wildly swung goblin shortsword. I've been tracking your 4e rules, and I'm thinking it would be fun to try it out.

A thought: If you added vitality to the gritty rules (I know you decided this was easier, but hear me out), you could make combatants start losing 1 vitality point per round spent in melee combat. Spellcasters could lose 1 whenever they cast a spell, and...well not sure about ranged weapon users. That would emulate the stress and wind loss for performing actions in the heat of battle. Barbarians could even be immune to this while in a rage.

I've always though that in the systems that tried soooo hard to mirror the gritty reality of combat and mortality, they tended to skip over the sweat-drenched and heavy breathing atmosphere of a brawl. If the battle lasted too long, both sides would be panting, barely able to move but still striving to keep their sword up and not be the first to make a mistake.

Of course we'd have to come up with something for ranged weapons, or everyone would just be archers and crosswbow wielders.

Another option, apart from Vitality is some sort of 'Wind' stat, that determines just how long a character can force himself to go on and keep fighting (maybe derived from con and wis, + class bonuses or something).

 

[Forrester]

Would people get extra hp from Con?

That is, would a 2nd level fighter with an 18 Con have 4 more hp than a 1st level fighter? Because damn, that makes the stat the most important stat in the world, for just about every character class. Not sure that's what you want to do.

Also, maybe not a bad idea for character classes to get 1/2 hp to 1hp for each level they raise. I've seen that idea somewhere else in a Grim 'n Gritty system, and it made sense. Hit points won't go through the roof, but they'll be some difference between a 10th level fighter and 1st level fighter in the amount they can last in a fight.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Would people get extra hp from Con?

That is, would a 2nd level fighter with an 18 Con have 4 more hp than a 1st level fighter? Because damn, that makes the stat the most important stat in the world, for just about every character class. Not sure that's what you want to do.

No extra HP from CON, ever. Your CON ability score *is* your base HP. To determine your starting HP, you take your CON score (generally 3-18) and add one full (maximized) HD from your starting class. This gives you your total HP, and all the hit points you will ever receive, except by increasing CON or by taking Toughness feats.

To reiterate, your CON modifier adds its bonus to everything it normally does, EXCEPT hit points. CON is now super important, as is your starting class (its HD adds once to your HP total). Now it becomes even more important to decide which class to take at 1st level. Skill points or hit points? Magic or hit points? EEP!

So the max hit points any human character could have would be:

20th level Barbarian: 53 hp (CON 23, 6 Toughness feats)
20th level Fighter, Paladin, Ranger: 51 hp (CON 23, 6 Toughness feats)
20th level Cleric, Druid: 49 hp (CON 23, 6 Toughness feats)
20th level Bard, Rogue: 47 hp (CON 23, 6 Toughness feats)
20th level Sorcerer, Wizard: 45 hp (CON 23, 6 Toughness feats)

This does not take into account magical ability enhancements/increases, which could raise CON to 28 (+5 enhancement item or Wish spells to raise stat). Either of these would add +3 HP.

 

[MythandLore]

So the max hit points any human character could have would be:

20th level Barbarian: 53 hp (CON 23, 6 Toughness feats)
20th level Fighter, Paladin, Ranger: 51 hp (CON 23, 6 Toughness feats)
20th level Cleric, Druid: 49 hp (CON 23, 6 Toughness feats)
20th level Bard, Rogue: 47 hp (CON 23, 6 Toughness feats)
20th level Sorcerer, Wizard: 45 hp (CON 23, 6 Toughness feats)

That kinda makes high damage spells way unbalanced.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

That kinda makes high damage spells way unbalanced.

It's always the darn spells that mess up my rules every time I want to change things a bit...

What if a spell can do no more number of HD in damage than its level? By that I mean a 3rd level spell does 3d6, a ninth level spell 9d6.

Or, instead of that spell cap, what about granting the CON bonus to HP each level?

Then again, maybe magic should be super powerful (and very rare). I want a LOW FANTASY setting, with few monsters and limited access to magic.

 

[Fade]

FYI, Grim'n'Gritty is Ken Hood's dark combat system. Available here: www.sleepingimperium.rpghost.com . If you develop your own, you'll need a new name.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

FYI, Grim'n'Gritty is Ken Hood's dark combat system. Available here: www.sleepingimperium.rpghost.com . If you develop your own, you'll need a new name.

Noted. I knew I'd heard that name before somewhere, LOL. After going to the site and looking at his rules, I think I'll just use them.

 

[ThomasBJJ]

with fewer HP, you should make armor have damage reduction

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

with fewer HP, you should make armor have damage reduction

Yup. But I'm switching over to Ken Hood's system unless somebody wants to help me develop this one.