New HARP book for your old D20 stuff

[hellbender]

hellbender - You got something wrong. The ICE that owed those people money went into bankruptcy and completely out of business a few years ago. It is dead. The Rolemaster/Spacemaster IP was sold to a gent in England by the bankruptcy court, who then created a holding company for the IP and gave a master license to Mjolnir LLC (who is doing business as Iron Crown Enterprises).

The new ICE is not the same company as the old ICE and not responsible for the debts of the old company. As much as the new ICE would like to see those folks get the money that the old ICE owed them, there is nothing that it can do about that.

As for what ICE plans on doing with the products, some may be sold on e-bay, those that might have any value, however that is expected to be very few, as ICE is expecing folks who take this deal to send in the crappiest products that they have. The rest get recycled.

While this may very well be, one would surmise that the new group would try to clean up the I.C.E. reputation and there is something that can be done, in a bankruptcy, a list of people owed is provided so that the new owners can settle old debts. I.C.E. (the original) lost some very talented artists and I am sure with it, confidence in other companies as well. I wouldn't walk across the street for a free I.C.E. product myself. The original owners ruined a good name and good games for me for good.

hellbender

 

[Rasyr]

I just purchased the 1st Edition on eBay from a fellow ENWorlder and depending on how I like it I go ahead & the LE Hardback when it comes out.

Don't forget to check out the various downloads for HARP. Almost all of the changes are collected in several PDFs on the HARP website. http://www.harphq.com/webextras.htm

including the entire Combat Chapter, and all the monsters. Also, be sure to get the Revised Character Creation Overview as there are some differences in how the races were made (in the Endurance and Power Point sections), and in a couple of the professions.

Any chance of getting the discount directed towards that one?

Sorry, but no. The boss set it only the Revised book.

I will probably pick up the College of Magics as well, mainly to see if there is anything worth stealing for D20 (...and won't that piss off the "D20 Suxxs!" folks over on the ICE board!).

Hmmm.. College of Magics contains some of the following:
Blood Magic (innate magical abilities)
Runes (trap runes, battle runes, etc..)
Rituals (casting spells that you don't know, or using as an alternative casting method altogether)
Circles (protection and confinement circles)
Item Creation rules (both temporary and permanent - potions, charms/talismans, one shot items, permanent items of all sorts)
Spelll creation system (now you can make your own spells)
Lots of spells (over 100 new spells for 4 new professions, plus cantrips!)
rules for studying magic
rules for creating schools and guilds
Lots more..... hehe

 

[Rasyr]

While this may very well be, one would surmise that the new group would try to clean up the I.C.E. reputation and there is something that can be done, in a bankruptcy, a list of people owed is provided so that the new owners can settle old debts. I.C.E. (the original) lost some very talented artists and I am sure with it, confidence in other companies as well.

No, in a bankrupcty, the bankruptcy trustee has a list of those to whom debts are owed, and those people are paid via the sale of the property. The new owner of said property has no debt to those that the prior owner owed, nor does the new owner see the list of debtors. That is part of the rules of bankrupcty. Those people that the old owner of the property owed are paid from the sale of the property by the trustee, usually on some sort of scale based on how much was owed them.

In ICE's case, IIRC, Tolkien Enterprises was the only to get paid. That is because of the trustee, not because of the owners of the old company, nor because of the guy who purchased the IP.

Now, if the guy in England had purchsed all the RM IP rights from ICE itself, then he may or may not be responsible for the debts of the old company depending on the terms of the sale. However, properties sold by a bankruptcy court are usually sold without chattel, meaning that no obligations are attached to them.

What you are saying is something like saying that if you purchased a car from a bankruptcy, and paid say $5,000 for it, that you should turn around and also pay the bank that financed the car another $7,000 because the bank was still owned $7,000 at the time that the bankruptcy court sold it to you.

I wouldn't walk across the street for a free I.C.E. product myself. The original owners ruined a good name and good games for me for good.

So, because the owners of the first ICE messed up, you are totally against the folks who bought the rights to things from a bankrupcty court.

I am sorry that you feel that way about the new ICE without ever giving them a chance.

 

[Umbran]

So, because the owners of the first ICE messed up, you are totally against the folks who bought the rights to things from a bankrupcty court.

I am sorry that you feel that way about the new ICE without ever giving them a chance.

More's the thing - most folk don't know that there's a new and old ICE. Nor do they generally know anything about the bankruptcy. The only time there's an issue is when you run into folks like hellbender, who recall that ICE wasn't paying it's debts, but did not hear that the company went belly up.

 

[Seri]

Hi lo

I just wanted to add that Rasyr and all the folks of ICE have been excellent in answering questions and being helpful in their chatroom (#ICEChat) on chat.psionics.net ( the same place as the ENWorld's chatroom)

I'm usually not into other game systems but HARPs has got me to want to try it out, this $30 old book idea is great, although I may wait, the cloth bound, gold foiled book looks very shiny

yay Rasyr!

~Seri

 

[hellbender]

No, in a bankrupcty....

What you are saying is something like saying that if you purchased a car from a bankruptcy, and paid say $5,000 for it, that you should turn around and also pay the bank that financed the car another $7,000 because the bank was still owned $7,000 at the time that the bankruptcy court sold it to you.



So, because the owners of the first ICE messed up, you are totally against the folks who bought the rights to things from a bankrupcty court.

I am sorry that you feel that way about the new ICE without ever giving them a chance.

On the first point: I admit I may be wrong about that particular bankruptcies particulars, the exact settlement can vary. However, the car analogy is irrelevant as these are two different types of bankruptcy, with different stipulations. It would stand to reason, at least to me, that a new company would attempt to smooth things over with previous people owed money in hopes of gaining their talent and trust again. The new I.C.E. has chosen not to do so, not even an effort, and that is a bit scary to me. While it is their right, as a new company not to do so, I still think that some effort could have been made.

And yes, I have no confidence myself in the new I.C.E. over the old, and I will never give the new I.C.E. a chance. If the company was renamed with the old brands, I might have at least entertained the idea, but I not only have zero interest in I.C.E., I fail to see why this thread is even here. It is moves by companies like (the previous I.C.E.) that brought me back to DnD. I have no personal beef with you, nor am I one of the many artists that was not paid by the previous I.C.E., nor do I wish to start any flame wars here. I have seen a few of the artists mentioning this recently on another forum and it really suprised me that nothing has been done for them, all these years later.

hellbender

 

[hellbender]

More's the thing - most folk don't know that there's a new and old ICE. Nor do they generally know anything about the bankruptcy. The only time there's an issue is when you run into folks like hellbender, who recall that ICE wasn't paying it's debts, but did not hear that the company went belly up.

Very true and thank you for bringing this point up. Not to mention that many of the previous I.C.E. freelancers were recently mentioning still not getting paid. I have visited the new I.C.E. site and I don't really see much to explain the difference in the companies.

he-doublehockeysticks-bender

 

[DonAdam]

One Star Wars RPG book coming your way...

 

[Rasyr]

On the first point: I admit I may be wrong about that particular bankruptcies particulars, the exact settlement can vary. However, the car analogy is irrelevant as these are two different types of bankruptcy, with different stipulations.

No, the car example is relevant, since it does not even go into what type of bankrupcty, only the effects of the sale of property from a bankruptcy. The situation is very similar to what you were suggesting.

It would stand to reason, at least to me, that a new company would attempt to smooth things over with previous people owed money in hopes of gaining their talent and trust again. The new I.C.E. has chosen not to do so, not even an effort, and that is a bit scary to me. While it is their right, as a new company not to do so, I still think that some effort could have been made.

Yes, the new ICE would like to smooth things over, however there are a number of legal difficulties that surround even attempting to do something like that.

And yes, I have no confidence myself in the new I.C.E. over the old, and I will never give the new I.C.E. a chance. If the company was renamed with the old brands, I might have at least entertained the idea, but I not only have zero interest in I.C.E., I fail to see why this thread is even here. It is moves by companies like (the previous I.C.E.) that brought me back to DnD.

The ICE name and logo were used because of the branding and recognition associated with them. That is as far as the connection to the old ICE goes. Brand recognition. As was pointed out, most folks don't know anything about the bankruptcy or that the IP was sold to somebody else.

As to why this thread is here - one of ICE's fans, who also plays d20, saw the marketing deal being offered and decided to be helpful and post it on these forums, where there are a lot of d20 players, some of whom might like to take advantage of the offer.

I have no personal beef with you, nor am I one of the many artists that was not paid by the previous I.C.E., nor do I wish to start any flame wars here.

But that is not the way you come across. You are coming across as wanting nothing more than to "threadcrap" on this thread. The way you talk also suggests that you might personally know some of the folks you mentioned. You have also managed to drag it way way off course....

I have seen a few of the artists mentioning this recently on another forum and it really suprised me that nothing has been done for them, all these years later.

I would appreciate a link to such threads. The current ICE does not even have contact information for all the people who did freelance work for the old ICE.

 

[hellbender]

We will need to agree to disagree on these points, which I am fine with. Also, I should never say never as if all is made right, even in part, I will admit I might even given the new I.C.E. a try.

I do not personally know any of these artists beyond friendly correspondence on a YahooGroup, and giving advice here and there on certain aspects of rendering images for another company. I do, however, understand the anger, frustration and confusion of not being paid for an art job that has taken time, money, research and materials.

hellbender