New Hybrid Options

[Mika]

Have they released something on how to Multiclass or Hybrid stuff from the first Essentials book?

There was an article with feats for combining Essentials and non-Essentials material -- for example, Knights, Slayers, and Thieves could exchange one use of Power Attack for a Fighter or Rogue encounter power, and Fighters and Rogues could exchange one of their encounter powers for one usage of Power Attack. But that article is pretty much it for the classes in Heroes of the Fallen Lands.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Other than bizarre CharOp builds that work towards gaining some sort of cheese by 23rd and a half level, does anyone ever use hybrids in actual games? I've never seen one in any Encounters, LFR or online games.

I steer clear of them because I feel you lose way too much in the hybrid process and gain far too little; not only mechanically, but also flavour-wise. The characters end up being this confused mash-up with no clear role or function.

I find Hybrids an interesting idea that really do not work well. Some can, certainly, but not very many of them. With weapon and implement rules being so restrictive, it is hard to make a character that uses both, especially at higher levels. I have only played one, a cleric/warlord hybrid who is pretty good thus far.

 

[Neverfate]

I find Hybrids an interesting idea that really do not work well. Some can, certainly, but not very many of them. With weapon and implement rules being so restrictive, it is hard to make a character that uses both, especially at higher levels. I have only played one, a cleric/warlord hybrid who is pretty good thus far.

This can be said about a fair amount of the actual, full classes in the game. There are a lot of interesting ideas that don't work well. Seeker, Runepriest, Assassin, Hexblade, Artificer and Sentinel and.... I made my point.

I think Hybrids exist for the same reason the Slayer build exists and why these Hybrid rules were released at all. They create a layer of complexity. Playing a hybrid just means you have to think about the character more to make it work, not that they don't work. The same could be said about the classes I mentioned as "good ideas". They just need more support, which we are now (slooowly) getting with Strength Cleric, Assassin and Weapliments in the last few months. Though that last article is due this month.

 

[fuzzlewump]

This can be said about a fair amount of the actual, full classes in the game. There are a lot of interesting ideas that don't work well. Seeker, Runepriest, Assassin, Hexblade, Artificer and Sentinel and.... I made my point.

What's wrong with those classes? Having seen all of them in play, I haven't noticed any obvious deficiencies. There is definitely a problem with lack of support for Seeker and Runepriest, but they are certainly playable as presented. I enjoyed playing my Seeker with a Dwarven Thrower Mordenkrad, tossing around Mordenkrads with crazy bonuses as ranged basic attacks. Not the best, mind you, but I thought he was cool.

EDIT: They aren't top of the line, of course, but they aren't at the bottom either. I think original assassin and Vampire take the cake for that, as far as strikers anyway.

 

[mneme]

I've seen hybrids in play, though not played one. There are actually a lot of workable hybrid combinations, but there are also a lot of traps:

MAD (your hybrid classes must have compatable stats, or be able to safely ignore a stat).
Actions (your classes must not both need your standard action to function, and it's dangerous for them both to need your minor action to function; this can be partially be mitigated with sufficient synnergy or if you're content to play a modal character)
Implement/weapon compatibility (This isn't actually that hard, as you can multiclass into a Holy Symbol or weapliment class and use all your Implement powers without needing to switch weapons or spend a hand. But if one class uses two dagger, and the other uses two longswords, things might get awkward).
Armor compatibility: Combining a heavily armored class with a lightly armored class can work out very badly. Sure, you can spend a feat and your hybrid talent slot to get your armor back, but now you're not getting any other optional features.

Even with all that, it's not hard to come up with cool builds (beyond obvious stuff like paladin/warlock, wizard/swordmage, the cheesy rogue/ranger based around immediate actions and minor action attacks, and rogue/warlock(Assassin)). Leaders and some defenders do all their stuff with minor (or free) actions; controllers, fighters, and most strikers do all or most of their stuff with their standard actions (except that controllers do need minor actions to sustain--but they're ranged so they don't always need to move). So fighter/leader, controller/leader, striker/leader, defender/controller, and defender/striker will tend to be places to find hybrids that are more than the sum of their parts (as long as the have compatible stats, armor, and weapons/implements).

I suspect Shaman would be a more popular hybrid if you couldn't get almost everything cool about being a Shaman with a few feats.

 

[wlmartin]

I'm surprised noone has posted about this.

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (New Hybrid and Multiclass Options)

I think it will help those who want to do Vampires with other classes. I did think they could have done better with the other hybrid and Multiclass stuff. Too many feats needed still.

OK
Well since not all of us (me included) have DDI, please can you tell us exactly what it says inside?

 

[Oldtimer]

Other than bizarre CharOp builds that work towards gaining some sort of cheese by 23rd and a half level, does anyone ever use hybrids in actual games?

I have this gnome Swordmage|Feylock / Feytouched PP / Multiclass Bard who is an absolute blast to play. It's a rare combat round when he doesn't teleport at least twice all over the fight.

The characters end up being this confused mash-up with no clear role or function.

True. My character's middle name is "confusion". And no one knows his role or function. Then again, he a gnome...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I like how those ... vampire feats really make the vampire class good.
Not only can you power up the vampire multiclass feat, but you can also take a multiclass feat if you are a vampire and have another way to gain another healing surge during battle. Which allows you to use it to empower your attacks instead of healing yourself with it...

 

[tiornys]

Other than bizarre CharOp builds that work towards gaining some sort of cheese by 23rd and a half level, does anyone ever use hybrids in actual games? I've never seen one in any Encounters, LFR or online games.

I do, yes. I've played a Fighter|Ranger hybrid in a home campaign, although due to a group shakeup (lost our leader, gained a striker), I'm now playing an Artificer|Warlord hybrid in that group, which incidentally also contains an Invoker|Warlock hybrid.

I have a level 8 Wizard|Shaman hybrid that I've played in LFR, although he's not my primary LFR character. I also have a Cleric|Ranger hybrid who I've managed to play once. Both characters would see more play if I were currently playing LFR more often than once every 3 months.

I'm playing a Shaman|Warlord hybrid in this game on these boards.

I steer clear of them because I feel you lose way too much in the hybrid process and gain far too little; not only mechanically, but also flavour-wise. The characters end up being this confused mash-up with no clear role or function.

It's certainly possible for this kind of thing to happen, and if you arbitrarily pick two classes and try to smash them together, this is likely what will result. Getting a viable character takes a bit of planning and a clear focus on what you're trying to accomplish.
For example, my Fighter|Ranger exploited the synergy between Tempest Technique and Twin Strike to recoup much of what I was losing by going hybrid. The character was intended to work as a primary striker, with the ability to step into the defender role if our primary defender needed some help. Thanks to the various striker-esque powers on the Fighter list, I only have a few resources devoted to the defender side. Even my Fighter at-will Footwork Lure (NOT Dual Strike, because if I'm in the defender role, I'm trying to rescue someone) serves double duty by acting as a disengage power if necessary.

t~

 

[Neverfate]

What's wrong with those classes? Having seen all of them in play, I haven't noticed any obvious deficiencies. There is definitely a problem with lack of support for Seeker and Runepriest, but they are certainly playable as presented. I enjoyed playing my Seeker with a Dwarven Thrower Mordenkrad, tossing around Mordenkrads with crazy bonuses as ranged basic attacks. Not the best, mind you, but I thought he was cool.

EDIT: They aren't top of the line, of course, but they aren't at the bottom either. I think original assassin and Vampire take the cake for that, as far as strikers anyway.

This is exactly my point. Like Hybrids, there is nothing wrong with these classes. They just under-perform compared to their contemporaries. Which is to say, there are better hybrids builds and there are worse hybrid builds. There's a clear spectrum just like there is with normal classes.

This goes to show that if WotC did one thing right is that they created tiers of complexity in 4E.