New Incantatrix Questions

[reiella]

I'd like to see that rule... why wouldn't a Cleric go into Hierophant after 20 levels, and take 5 feats for 5 levels instead of 1?

Or just launch into Fighter and get bonus feats (3 - 1st, 2nd, 4th) faster then an EPIC Fighter (2 - 22nd, 24th).

Maybe there is a wording loophole... but intent is out of the question. YMMV.


Mike

ELH P8. Adding a Second Class

When you have to choose from a list of bonus feats in your second class, you can also choose from the bonus epic feats described for each specific class below.

 

[andargor]

The new Epic rules in the 3.5 SRD mirror this:

Adding a Second Class
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Whenever an epic character is allowed to pick up a feat as part of character level advancement, he or she can choose either a nonepic feat or an epic feat. All class descriptions provide a list of bonus feats that characters must choose from. When a character has to choose from a list of bonus feats in the second class, he or she can also choose from the bonus epic feats described for each specific class.

Andargor

 

[mikebr99]

The new Epic rules in the 3.5 SRD mirror this:

Andargor

No it doesn't... from the SRD for Fighter:

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Bonus Feats:​

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At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
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I've underlined the fact that a bonus feat from levelling as a fighter must be from feats noted as "fighter bonus feats".​

From the SRD... this feat seems to best represent what a fighter would take first..​

Overwhelming Critical [Epic]

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Choose one type of melee weapon. With that weapon, you do more damage on a critical hit.​

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Prerequisites: Str 23, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (weapon to be chosen), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (weapon to be chosen). ​

Benefit: When using the weapon you have selected, you deal an extra 1d6 points of damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon’s critical multiplier is x3, add an extra 2d6 points of damage instead, and if the multiplier is 4, add an extra 3d6 points of damage instead. (Creatures immune to critical hits can’t be affected by this feat.) ​

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.​

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In fact, I didn't see any feats in the SRD that say they are "fighter Bonus Feats".​

So, If I've got this right... you are allowing players to start taking fighter levels at 21st (Character level) to get bonus feats... but there isn't any to take?​

Mike​

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[James McMurray]

What part of "When a character has to choose from a list of bonus feats in the second class, he or she can also choose from the bonus epic feats described for each specific class." do you not understand? It seems to me that intent is, as you said, not out of the question. However, the intent is apparently the exact opposite of what you think it is, since its clearly spelled out that a character gaining feats for a class can also choose epic feats.

So, If I've got this right... you are allowing players to start taking fighter levels at 21st (Character level) to get bonus feats... but there isn't any to take?

Close, someone who takes Fighter 1 as their first level class can, by the RAW, choose an epic feat from the fighter bonus list as well. As for whether I allow it or not, that depends. Over at Exodus we try to stick as closely to the rules as possible at all times, thus we allow it. In my home campaign I don't allow it, because I think its unbalanced and leave very little reason for many classes (monk, barbarian, etc.) to continue advancing past 02th level instead of going into fighter. YMMV.

why wouldn't a Cleric go into Hierophant after 20 levels, and take 5 feats for 5 levels instead of 1?

Perhaps because he'd rather go into Contemplative, Church Inquisitor, or any of a myriad of other nice prestige classes?

Or just launch into Fighter and get bonus feats (3 - 1st, 2nd, 4th) faster then an EPIC Fighter (2 - 22nd, 24th).

Wouldn't you rather go Fighter 2 / Samurai (OA version) 2 / Psychic Warrior 2 to get 6 bonus epic feats while the epic fighter only gets 3? I never said the RAW was perfect, but that's how it works. Feel free to house rule it in your games. That's what I did.

 

[mikebr99]

Close, someone who takes Fighter 1 as their first level class can, by the RAW, choose an epic feat from the fighter bonus list as well.

A little closer... In order to fill a Fighter Bonus feat slot, you need to meet all prereq's and you need to pick a feat that says it's a fighter bonus feat... which none of the EPIC feats say. Unless you can quote an EPIC feat that states it's a Fighter Bonus Feat


Mike

 

[James McMurray]

Fighters choose bonus feats from a list (the list of fighter bonus feats). A character that chooses a bonus feat from a list can also choose an epic bonus feat from the epic class's list. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Your rationalization is a great way to backup a house rule, and I think I'll use it if anyone questions the rule in my home game. But its still a house rule.

And it doesn't change the fact that the Incantatrix (and Heirophant) gets a "bonus metamagic feat." Epic metamagic feats are still "metamagic feats." How would you rationalize disallowing them?

Back on topic: Can someone explain to me how the Incantatrix's metamagic on the fly ability works now? I've got an Incantatrix over at Exodus but my PGFR won't arrive for who knows how long.

 

[andargor]

Fighters choose bonus feats from a list (the list of fighter bonus feats). A character that chooses a bonus feat from a list can also choose an epic bonus feat from the epic class's list.

Seconded. "When a character has to choose from a list of bonus feats in the second class, he or she can also choose from the bonus epic feats described for each specific class" means for the fighter either fighter bonus feats or one of: Armor Skin, Combat Archery, Damage Reduction, Devastating Critical, Dire Charge, Distant Shot, Energy Resistance, Epic Endurance, Epic Leadership, Epic Prowess, Epic Toughness, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization, Exceptional Deflection, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Manyshot, Improved Stunning Fist, Improved Whirlwind Attack, Infinite Deflection, Instant Reload, Legendary Commander, Legendary Rider, Legendary Wrestler, Overwhelming Critical, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, Reflect Arrows, Spellcasting Harrier, Storm of Throws, Superior Initiative, Swarm of Arrows, Two-Weapon Rend, Uncanny Accuracy.

Assuming the prereqs are met, of course.

Andargor

 

[reiella]

A little closer... In order to fill a Fighter Bonus feat slot, you need to meet all prereq's and you need to pick a feat that says it's a fighter bonus feat... which none of the EPIC feats say. Unless you can quote an EPIC feat that states it's a Fighter Bonus Feat


Mike

Actually, page 11 and page 12 of the ELH defines them as fighter bonus feats, however this may be antiquated (in non-FR 3.5 gameplay). Also in EpicClasses.rtf.

Oddly, it seems the 3.5 SRD definition has done away with Bonus Feat lists. This is reflected in the 3.5 Epic Berserker definition in Complete Warrior. Of course, Player's Guide to Faerun uses the 'old' 3.0/ELH style Epic class progressions, complete with restricted bonus feat list. Hmm, again, after looking at the srd from Wizards.com, it jsut looks like the Sage's version is missing some detail on the Epic classes, as the bonus feat list is given in EpicClasses.rtf.

Hmm, looking at the 3.5 SRD from Wizard's website versus the 3.5 SRD from the Sage, I'm left seeing -alot- of missing content. But this may be due to the Epic rule listing on the website being the 3.0 ELH rules and not the rules presented in the 3.5 DMG.

Sigh, so I'm sufficenctly confused now, especially given that the Epic Berserker in CW lists no specific Bonus Feat List.

It may well be a 3.0 ELH Rule that has changed but isn't reflected in the SRD (or the Player's Guide to Faerun...).

 

[reiella]

Back on topic: Can someone explain to me how the Incantatrix's metamagic on the fly ability works now? I've got an Incantatrix over at Exodus but my PGFR won't arrive for who knows how long.

Kept this post seperate, because , err. well I forgot about this question .

Instant Metamagic, you just apply a metamagic feat to a spell without preparing it that way beforehand or increasing its casting time. A wizard's prepared spell works as if she had prepared it with the metamagic feat, but it does not use a higher level spell slot. A sorc/bard's spell is cast without increasing the casting time, but it works as if he had cast it with the metamagic feat. Now, it's up to you to determine if that means the spontaneous spellcaster still has to soak up a higher spell slot. At 9th level, incantatrix can use it twice. I personally am leaning towards it removes the increased spell slot entirely.

"a 7th-level or higher incantatrix can apply a single metamagic feat she possesses to a spell without prepared it that way beforehand (if she prepares spells) or increasing its casting time (if she does not prepare spells)."

 

[Falling Icicle]

Thanks for the info people. That helps alot. Hopefully I'll get my book soon!

(Side note: Red Wizard/Incantatrix sucks ... FIVE prohibited schools, eek!).

Five? Red Wizards only have to give up ONE extra school. So it would be 4 forbidden schools, 3 if the Red Wizard/Incantatrix is a Diviner.

[Edit] P.S. How does the abilities that let you apply metamagics to other people's spells, existing spells, and items work? I've heard you have to make a Spellcraft check, but do you have to pay any spell slots?