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For me, I think I would just like to see non-combat encounter analogues of flanking, areas of effect, terrain and forced movement. Obviously these would not be flanking, areas of effect, terrain and forced movement - and they may well be different for different "classes" of non-combat encounter - but they would help add a sense of tension and adversity to non-combat challenges.
 

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. There IS drama in an SC where the player is trying to figure out if they can solve the challenge with a good skill and make that final toss when there are 2 fails on the table.

Between backgrounds, training, half-level bonuses, and things like the half-elven Knack for Success, Aid Another checks, and only 17 skills, it is very rare when someone doesn't have a + RIDICULOUS bonus to some relevant skill used in the SC. And since you can "sit out" an SC without any problems, you frequently enter a situation where one or two people are making + RIDICULOUS checks against a paltry DC, leaving the rest of the party to twiddle their thumbs and let the experts handle it. Sometimes, there's a failure, maybe even 2 (runs of bad luck do happen, and it's hard to turn a roll of 2 or 3 into a victory even with your + RIDICULOUS bonus) but victory in an SC is quite assured by-the-book.

You can, of course, go outside of the book -- inflate the DC's, force inexpert party members to make checks, etc., but then that's the territory of a good DM going above and beyond a rule that doesn't support them. Which doesn't make the rule good.

You can buy a horse, if there's one around and if you have time, and if you don't need to cross water or go really fast, but in ALL of those later cases you can cast Phantom Steed and it is not expensive to do.

What kind of a DM keeps you from a horse, if such a thing is reasonable, and simultaneously forces you to "go really fast" and cross water?

What does such a DM really expect you to do if you don't have a ritual caster in the party, or spare GP lying around, or time to use the ritual?

How do you see non-combat conflict resolution mechanics as inferior?

They don't generate tension.
They don't have active opposition.
They don't allow unique contributions from every party member.
They are binary.
They lack variety.

I understand that you disagree, but I hope it's possible for you to understand why I (and others!) feel that way. If you can't, I suppose there's little else to say -- you just can't understand the other side of the issue. Not something a message board can probably help you with. ;)

I always feel like the problem isn't bad mechanics, it is lack of someone finding a way to articulate them that all of the community identifies with.

Rules are support. Bad rules are bad support. SCs and rituals are bad support for dramatic noncombat events, for the reasons above.

It should be mostly about working through what the situation is, and figuring out how to apply your skills, strategizing, trying things, seeing how the situation evolves and adapting to it, etc.

The mechanics don't support that playstyle.

So, reducing the rules heaviness of combat and trimming back its time requirement some seems key to me. The contrast between the two is reduced and since ALL D&D always has combat it will please the 'want more story' people. It will be a more balanced game. I'm leery though of non-combat rules in general. I like to play that fast and loose.

Ultimately, I think we're aligned with goals. :)

You like SC's and rituals because what they were designed for meets your needs -- fast and loose, letting you use your DMing skills to generate the tension.

I dislike them because they don't meet my needs -- more detail and variety, letting the rules generate the tension, which the DM sets up and sees the fallout of.
 

For me, I think I would just like to see non-combat encounter analogues of flanking, areas of effect, terrain and forced movement. Obviously these would not be flanking, areas of effect, terrain and forced movement - and they may well be different for different "classes" of non-combat encounter - but they would help add a sense of tension and adversity to non-combat challenges.

That's half of what is needed. The other side is there needs to be resources explicitly at risk, not merely situation established by the roleplaying. These can be any number of things.

For example, in BW, if you really want to succeed on a roll, you will be spending some Fate/Persona/Deeds points to give you a better shot. On "challenging" rolls, the only ways you can win is to so spend, or get enough bonuses from other sources to lower the difficulty. If you do that, you don't get to record a "challenging test", though. So there is a crticial and meaningful decision point right there. Do I want to win more than I want to have the challenging test?

A rough and ready 4E way to approximate that might be to take the XP at risk in the challenge (as KM already noted), and make it explicit. Make the challenge a bit harder, and then you gamble part of the XP to get bonuses to your roll. No failure yet, you might go for the whole thing. Get one or two, you might start hedging and try to get some of it. Or you might decide that failure was acceptable, if that gave you a shot at getting all the XP. (Necessarily, XP must be granted for attempting the skill challenge, in this model, which is how I play it anyway. I'm not sure that is RAW, though.)

Ideally, the DM is already building in story and situation-based reasons for the players to want to succeed, and there is implicit risk in some of those elements. You help the farming family escape the zombie rush, because it has been prior established in the story for the party to care (positive), and because their relatives in town might not sell you things if you don't (negative). And if things really go south, you'll be in the path of the zombie invasion (transition to another type of challenge, combat or escape or hiding, in this case).

Mechanics for non-combat resources should build explicity on these things, rather than exist in a void. That is, you can risk getting all the XP by going for that last tough roll unaided, thus risking the family--or you can push hard and save the family at the expense of not getting all the XP. It thus becomes apparent why XP is a lousy resource to handle this sort of thing.

Something called "Fate" or "Luck" points would be my first choice for a simple resource built into a non-combat reward cycle. Those are hardly original, but unlike "Fame" or "Honor" or some more niche options, those work in a variety of styles and without being too jarring. You get "Fate" by attempting non-combat situations with meaningful story costs. And then you spend them to "win" such situations when it matters enough to you. That doesn't have the richness of the BW reward cycle, where it all ties back into character advancement directly, but I'm not sure that is needed in D&D.

Such a system is only meaningful if the DM is willing to push situation hard. BW's whole cycle collapses if the DM does not. That is, you have to again and again put the players into tough situations where they want their characters to "win"--often enough that they can't win them all. Then the meaningful decision is primarily about which times mattered most to them--thus, drama.
 
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Between backgrounds, training, half-level bonuses, and things like the half-elven Knack for Success, Aid Another checks, and only 17 skills, it is very rare when someone doesn't have a + RIDICULOUS bonus to some relevant skill used in the SC. And since you can "sit out" an SC without any problems, you frequently enter a situation where one or two people are making + RIDICULOUS checks against a paltry DC, leaving the rest of the party to twiddle their thumbs and let the experts handle it. Sometimes, there's a failure, maybe even 2 (runs of bad luck do happen, and it's hard to turn a roll of 2 or 3 into a victory even with your + RIDICULOUS bonus) but victory in an SC is quite assured by-the-book.

You can, of course, go outside of the book -- inflate the DC's, force inexpert party members to make checks, etc., but then that's the territory of a good DM going above and beyond a rule that doesn't support them. Which doesn't make the rule good.

Here, I think we are on different pages. My interpretation of the SC rules must differ from yours because I don't see anything that indicates I would anticipate every single check being made by the most optimized character, any more than I would expect every monster to only be meleeing nothing but the highest AC toughest character either. My interpretation of SCs is that there's a narrative in which the conflict is playing out and in the course of that narrative opportunities will come up for specific characters to exercise control of the narrative, by making a skill check (usually). In some cases the party may be able to decide who is going to make that check, in others they may not. Sometimes the situation may be "you see an opportunity to do something, do you want to take it?" and in other cases the situation will be "X comes up, make a Y check to deal with it." So I always anticipate a mixture of checks with different skill bonuses.

Likewise there are going to be situations where a character can 'sit out' but that may in and of itself have other knock-on effects. If the character with the good Athletics doesn't accept the Princess's offer to chat about history, he may not be in the right place at the right time to stop the kidnapper. The wizard might have taken up the offer to talk to the Princess instead, now he's going to just have to try for a good Athletics check (or several). Perhaps he can pop off a utility power and cover for his weakness, or maybe he just loses the Princess and the negotiations with the King get a whole lot more complicated.

What kind of a DM keeps you from a horse, if such a thing is reasonable, and simultaneously forces you to "go really fast" and cross water?

What does such a DM really expect you to do if you don't have a ritual caster in the party, or spare GP lying around, or time to use the ritual?

Well, I don't know about 'force', players ALWAYS have choices, even if they're not always GOOD choices. And I think there are plenty of DMs who just have situations come up. I don't make a list of every possible way in which the party might not be able to conveniently deal with every situation. Maybe they just have to cast a ritual! OTOH if they don't have a ritual caster then maybe they took up the elf's offer to sell them a Phantom Steed scroll...

In other words I expect the players to do some planning. I may be old school but that was the beating heart of succeeding in AD&D for sure. It was a very 'boy scout' kind of game, "be prepared". Of course it makes sense to give the players ways to anticipate specific needs and opportunities to fill in where they genuinely lack a capability. Rituals are a fairly significant part of that. Especially considering there are some pretty nice divinations that wise parties will keep on hand in order to suss out what is going on.

And if I'm going to make say a ritual REQUIRED in order to negotiate some aspect of an adventure then I'll provide the party with the resources to use it outside of parcels. Treasure is after all intended to be what you GET. If a character chooses to use a ritual to make the odds better, that's their business, but if teleporting to the floating castle is the only way to get there I'm not going to make them pay a toll to do it. In that case a ritual is just a plot device.

They don't generate tension.
They don't have active opposition.
They don't allow unique contributions from every party member.
They are binary.
They lack variety.

I understand that you disagree, but I hope it's possible for you to understand why I (and others!) feel that way. If you can't, I suppose there's little else to say -- you just can't understand the other side of the issue. Not something a message board can probably help you with. ;)

Eh, I'm trying to dig deeper. I mean if there are reasons why one conflict resolution system creates tension and another one isn't, I'd be interested in knowing the details because it certainly can be applicable to amping up those aspects of the game.


Rules are support. Bad rules are bad support. SCs and rituals are bad support for dramatic noncombat events, for the reasons above.

The mechanics don't support that playstyle.

Yeah, I really am trying to dig into the nuts and bolts of that. Not that you're under any obligation to assist that any more than it amuses you. :)

Ultimately, I think we're aligned with goals. :)

You like SC's and rituals because what they were designed for meets your needs -- fast and loose, letting you use your DMing skills to generate the tension.

I dislike them because they don't meet my needs -- more detail and variety, letting the rules generate the tension, which the DM sets up and sees the fallout of.

The one thing that comes to mind about 'detail' relates to some things that were said a ways back about prescriptive and proscriptive. Taking skill systems as the clearest example:

The 3.5 and 4e skill systems are mechanically pretty similar. There are a few differences, but they really aren't fundamental. The one area where they obviously differ is in the number and consequent breadth of the skills. 4e skills being very broad prescribe, and I would argue that 3.5 ones proscribe.

Take Athletics as an example. A 4e character with Athletics can presumably swim. A 4e character without Athletics may or may not be able to swim. One will do it better than the other, but being a broad category of things and Athletics being more of an 'aptitude' than a specific skill having it says "you're better than normal at these kinds of things."

A 3.5 character without the swim skill logically can't swim, else why would there be this one very specific skill at all? He may well still pass checks related to swimming but there's no "hey I jumped into some water for the first time and whatta you know, it wasn't so bad.". So it ends up being a proscriptive system in effect, even though the actual mechanics of the checks are virtually identical to the prescriptive 4e skill system.

This is an example of how a single system both may be able to meet the needs of multiple styles of play easily, but also how it may be impossible to meet them all even though everyone is using the same core mechanics if specific design decisions are made. 4e CONSCIOUSLY chose a specific design on this point very deliberately (which is why BTW a lot of people who like 4e get annoyed at the "it has a crappy skill system" meme, it ain't crappy, it is specifically designed to work as it does).
 

Likewise there are going to be situations where a character can 'sit out' but that may in and of itself have other knock-on effects. If the character with the good Athletics doesn't accept the Princess's offer to chat about history, he may not be in the right place at the right time to stop the kidnapper. The wizard might have taken up the offer to talk to the Princess instead, now he's going to just have to try for a good Athletics check (or several). Perhaps he can pop off a utility power and cover for his weakness, or maybe he just loses the Princess and the negotiations with the King get a whole lot more complicated.
Sure, it's possible to design SCs like that - and after several false starts I started using a range of "arrangements" like this as well as other tricks, mechanisms and variations - but where is there one jot of mechanical or even advisory assistance with that in the rules? Other than DM fiat (hate, hate, yeugh!, in the context of D&D) what system options were open to help you design or run that in a challenge? Unless you have some rules I don't, the answer is none whatsoever.

Contrast that with combat encounters, where not only are terrain effects and opponent powers and abilities defined, but there is even advice on how to build encounters to make use of terrain, mix in traps and skill challenges as part of combat and make good use of the monsters encountered.

I'm not saying this is any worse than 3E - it's clearly better. But, set beside the bang-up job 4E does with combat, I can't help saying "good job with the combat system - now, if we could just get the same for the non-combat encounters we'd have a mighty fine game on our hands!"

Incidentally, I don't neccessarily see the answer as a development of the skill challenge itself. There's definitely some scope in using skill challenges (as written) as "monsters" - including single skill rolls as "minions" - in some sort of combination. The point is, though, that all of that "non-combat as a meaningful arena for proper challenges" remains largely unexplored by the development team at WotC. I would rejoice to see that change.
 

since you can "sit out" an SC without any problems, you frequently enter a situation where one or two people are making + RIDICULOUS checks against a paltry DC, leaving the rest of the party to twiddle their thumbs and let the experts handle it.

<snip>

They don't have active opposition.
When I run SCs, I try and deal with these issues via encounter design and the narrative resolution of the situation. That is, "sitting out" is precluded by pouring on the pressure (like in a non-arena combat contexts, the pressure is on all the PCs). Like I posted upthread, the lack of active opposition is a bigger issue - I try and use the techniuqes LostSoul used to post about, so that the opposition will win by default unless the PCs are successful in thwarting it.

I know this isn't what you want from the mechanics - I'm just trying to say how I use the mechanics.

it's possible to design SCs like that - and after several false starts I started using a range of "arrangements" like this as well as other tricks, mechanisms and variations - but where is there one jot of mechanical or even advisory assistance with that in the rules?

<snip>

Contrast that with combat encounters, where not only are terrain effects and opponent powers and abilities defined, but there is even advice on how to build encounters to make use of terrain, mix in traps and skill challenges as part of combat and make good use of the monsters encountered.
Putting the mechanical issues to one side, I think that better guidelines are definitely needed. I'd like to see WotC's designers really try to tell people how to make use of their existing rules, before they start adding on new mechanics!

there needs to be resources explicitly at risk, not merely situation established by the roleplaying.

<snip>

A rough and ready 4E way to approximate that might be to take the XP at risk in the challenge (as KM already noted), and make it explicit.

<snip>

It thus becomes apparent why XP is a lousy resource to handle this sort of thing.

<snip>

Such a system is only meaningful if the DM is willing to push situation hard.
Fully agreed in relation to pushing via situation - that's what I've been trying to post about.

I like the idea of a resource that can be staked. At the moment I use Action Points (to grant rerolls) as a half-baked version of this. And I think you're right that using XP, in 4e, is definitely not the way to go. 4e XP aren't really a reward or a resource (in my view). They're a pacing mechanic, and using them as a resource would just tend to muck up the pacing.
 

Sure, it's possible to design SCs like that - and after several false starts I started using a range of "arrangements" like this as well as other tricks, mechanisms and variations - but where is there one jot of mechanical or even advisory assistance with that in the rules? Other than DM fiat (hate, hate, yeugh!, in the context of D&D) what system options were open to help you design or run that in a challenge? Unless you have some rules I don't, the answer is none whatsoever.

Contrast that with combat encounters, where not only are terrain effects and opponent powers and abilities defined, but there is even advice on how to build encounters to make use of terrain, mix in traps and skill challenges as part of combat and make good use of the monsters encountered.

I'm not saying this is any worse than 3E - it's clearly better. But, set beside the bang-up job 4E does with combat, I can't help saying "good job with the combat system - now, if we could just get the same for the non-combat encounters we'd have a mighty fine game on our hands!"

Incidentally, I don't neccessarily see the answer as a development of the skill challenge itself. There's definitely some scope in using skill challenges (as written) as "monsters" - including single skill rolls as "minions" - in some sort of combination. The point is, though, that all of that "non-combat as a meaningful arena for proper challenges" remains largely unexplored by the development team at WotC. I would rejoice to see that change.

Hmmm, yeah, I don't know. I find myself at a loss to imagine a more detailed system that is going to cover the vast range of possible things that could be a 'Skill Challenge' in any kind of unified way. Then you start to get into the question of how many variations of the system do you need for all the various types of situations, and what is the best way to factor that up. Are all 'physical challenges' similar enough that they can all have some unifying extra mechanics? What about 'social challenges'? Or is there some other way that it should be divided based on something to do with the conceptual structure (IE you could have 'races', 'decision trees', and 'hunts').

I think there are some common techniques that can be extrapolated. The RC version of SCs does some of that with advantages. I guess it is really a question of where the law of diminishing returns kicks in. More detailed rules are likely to have narrower applicability.
 

Hmmm, missed a couple posts there... Yeah, I think there's a leeriness on the part of the D&D dev community to tread into the water of 'meta-mechanics'. This is something that the game seems to have studiously avoided all along. Even 4e's APs are really CHARACTER resources, whereas a 'fate point' is really a player resource and thus managing it is meta-game. There's also a kind of issue of "why can't I do this" involved. "Oh you don't have any fate points, you can't have your character do cool thing X" is one thing, which daily powers kind of do in 4e.

But now lets say you put the farmers at risk to get a fate point, why NARRATIVELY did you do that? It may create a new aspect to the story, but from the PC's perspective why did he do it? There certainly can be a narrative answer to that, but I often found that kind of mechanic to seem a bit forced. You can explain it like BW does with an aspect of your character "well, I'm just greedy, so of course I borrow the money from the lone shark to up my bet at the track!" but it does really seem a bit foreign to the whole "We're a band of heroes, we go around kicking butt" that is where D&D in general mostly is at.

And yes, I'm sure SCs can be much better explained and the examples provided are generally poor. Given that the DMG2 ones are only incrementally better than the DMG1 examples, and even Mike's series on SCs barely touched on a lot of stuff (and forms a large part of the DMG2 discussion anyway in edited form) it seems to me that there's just not a huge amount of expertise there with this kind of thing. I am not sure why that is because it seems like there are plenty of experienced game designers at WotC, but I'm pretty sure I've created some significantly better examples myself than they've done in the books and I'm SURE I'm nowhere near the writer that James Wyatt is, lol!

Maybe it really is just a profound reluctance to introduce any kind of narrative rules or meta-resources into D&D. They might feel like the game hasn't needed them and is better off as the prime example of its kind. I dunno. WotC was kind of burned by things like Everway that really tried to do some original stuff in that space? Beats me. I guess you could chalk it up to just "we do our thing and BW does its thing".
 

pemerton said:
When I run SCs, I try and deal with these issues via encounter design and the narrative resolution of the situation. That is, "sitting out" is precluded by pouring on the pressure (like in a non-arena combat contexts, the pressure is on all the PCs). Like I posted upthread, the lack of active opposition is a bigger issue - I try and use the techniuqes LostSoul used to post about, so that the opposition will win by default unless the PCs are successful in thwarting it.

This is a perfect example of the "good DMing trumps all" thing I was talking about. You fix the problems inherent in the system. Which is GREAT DMing, but it's not good rules design (the mantra of "Monte Cook can probably run a pretty good game of FATAL").

I'd like to see WotC's designers really try to tell people how to make use of their existing rules, before they start adding on new mechanics!

Rather than tell us to work harder and be better at playing the game, I'd prefer them to design a better ruleset. If I have to put in a lot of effort to make the game fun, then that's not fun for me. Clearly, not everyone needs to put in that work for SCs and rituals and the like, but equally as clearly, some do, and for those that do, it's a problem.

AbdulAlhazred said:
I find myself at a loss to imagine a more detailed system that is going to cover the vast range of possible things that could be a 'Skill Challenge' in any kind of unified way.

Do you know how insanely complicated swinging a sword is? How many subtle and overt variations on angle, power, stamina, strength, skill, willpower, hope, fear, and confidence go into every single stroke? How could a system cover that vast range of possibilities?

Easy: The Attack Roll.

Point being: D&D has always been abstract to some degree. It's no harder to do this for a sword swing than it is to do it for a skilled manipulation of a conversation.

Now, go the other way. Imagine if combat was just "The party must make 5 successful attack rolls vs. AC of 14+level before you miss 3 times."

In fact, try that. Replace all your combats for a session with the above rule.

Now imagine that this is what people who aren't into combat-heavy D&D games have to sit through.

A good DM can still make it interesting. You might use the above rule and have a great time! In which case, you can give ME the $120 you would've spent on a PHB/DMG/MM, because I've given you all you ever need to play a good game of D&D with.

A good DM can make anything interesting. The rules don't make it interesting, though, and that's why I don't think they're very good rules when what you WANT, every time, is an interesting challenge.

Compared with the combat rules, which do succeed in giving an interesting challenge each time (though at a level of complexity that I'm not personally a fan of all the time), those are not good rules at all!

Replace skills with something more akin to powers, where instead of a raw check, you get to say, "This Happens." Make skill checks more like attack rolls. Use defenses. Use economies. Have attrition. Have the challenge fight back. Have victories cost. Allow retreat. It's all very possible. It's been done well before. It's been done pretty well in 4e combat, even.
 

Rather than tell us to work harder and be better at playing the game, I'd prefer them to design a better ruleset. If I have to put in a lot of effort to make the game fun, then that's not fun for me. Clearly, not everyone needs to put in that work for SCs and rituals and the like, but equally as clearly, some do, and for those that do, it's a problem.

Do you know how insanely complicated swinging a sword is? How many subtle and overt variations on angle, power, stamina, strength, skill, willpower, hope, fear, and confidence go into every single stroke? How could a system cover that vast range of possibilities?

Easy: The Attack Roll.

Point being: D&D has always been abstract to some degree. It's no harder to do this for a sword swing than it is to do it for a skilled manipulation of a conversation.

Now, go the other way. Imagine if combat was just "The party must make 5 successful attack rolls vs. AC of 14+level before you miss 3 times."

In fact, try that. Replace all your combats for a session with the above rule.

You're missing the point here. Combat is a single type of activity in which specific individuals take fairly specific roles and fairly specific things happen. It can be covered by a system with whatever varying levels of abstraction you want, but the goals are clear, the process is well understood, and it is always in many fundamental ways the same. You have attacks, defense, movement, injury, cover, flanking, vision, etc. These are all well understood and well known.

Now, tell me what the common factors are in a canoe race, surviving a landslide, disarming a bomb, negotiating a peace treaty, and outsmarting the god of thieves. I'm not suggesting there are no commonalities, but the commonalities are FAR more general and of a totally different character than the commonalities between swinging a sword, swinging a mace, shooting a bow, or casting a fireball. The former group of things involve completely different activities.

Now, why is the SC system so much more abstract than the combat system? This is because the commonalities are at a much higher level. Indeed at the level that my first list of things share elements in common they are just as much like combat as they are like each other. So a system like the SC system, to cover all of those things MUST be equally generalized and abstract. Indeed the SC system CAN cover combat since at the level of the SC system it is like the other situations.

So we now come back to my point. Please suggest a system which can cover the dynamics of snow sliding down a mountain at the same abstraction level as combat, AND cover a canoe race at the same level, AND cover the other situations on my list, all at the same level of abstraction as combat. Clearly you cannot. Nobody can. No such system can exist in any practical RPG. If I were making a game about Ski Patrol then it would make sense to create an avalanche module that was reasonably detailed. That game would probably lack a combat system, perhaps allowing for it at the sort of level of abstraction you mock above. It won't be a big issue in that system because it probably won't come up much.

If I were to complain to you that your Ski Patrol game had a sucky combat system your answer to me would pretty much amount to something like "well, play a different game" or "you'll have to do more of the work on making that fun yourself, it isn't the focus of this game." Those are perfectly legitimate and sensible responses, and they do not deserve an "Oberoni Fallacy" response nor an "Any Good Scottsman" response. They are just an acknowledgment of reality.

Now imagine that this is what people who aren't into combat-heavy D&D games have to sit through.

A good DM can still make it interesting. You might use the above rule and have a great time! In which case, you can give ME the $120 you would've spent on a PHB/DMG/MM, because I've given you all you ever need to play a good game of D&D with.

A good DM can make anything interesting. The rules don't make it interesting, though, and that's why I don't think they're very good rules when what you WANT, every time, is an interesting challenge.

Compared with the combat rules, which do succeed in giving an interesting challenge each time (though at a level of complexity that I'm not personally a fan of all the time), those are not good rules at all!

I am comparing them. The thing is YES many of those situations in D&D require more work or more finesse as a DM to pull off well. Again, the reason is D&D is a game that features combat and can thus afford to supply a very detailed combat system. The flaw in your reasoning here is in your assumption that there is some kind of category equivalence between "combat" and "everything that isn't combat" where there is some sort of equally deep rules treatment of "everything that isn't combat" when in fact it is itself 1000's of other categories EACH ONE OF WHICH has as much complexity as combat does.

Replace skills with something more akin to powers, where instead of a raw check, you get to say, "This Happens." Make skill checks more like attack rolls. Use defenses. Use economies. Have attrition. Have the challenge fight back. Have victories cost. Allow retreat. It's all very possible. It's been done well before. It's been done pretty well in 4e combat, even.

OK, but how many of these powers will I need? Combat has say 5 characters in it and each one has minimally around 10 types of actions they can take at any given point in the combat. How many of these will I need for each of my non-combat situations? Practically speaking combat options are what, 70% of your character? I am pretty skeptical that I can make equivalently detailed subsystems for other things, or the 2 page 4e character sheet could be Encyclopedia Brittanica!

At a deeper level there is another issue here, which is what are the proper dimensions of abstraction? In my canoe racing system what are the natural elements that I will model? Individual strokes of the paddle? What? It isn't exactly obvious. With combat this issue exists too, but nearly 100 years of war game development and 35 years of RPG development have given us some good answers. We lack equally good answers for other situations.

Given that the types of abstractions will be different and often not well known ahead of time for non-combat things it really isn't easy to build detailed systems for them. The SC system actually IS a pretty good answer. It is very abstract of course, but that's the price of generality.

Finally I'd like to point out that your example of combat isn't as comical as you think. There is a vast debate going on right now on the 4e community forums about exactly this, with one group of posters absolutely dedicated to the idea that D&D should shed its combat system entirely and replace it with an abstract SC-like 'theatre of the mind' or something, and the other basically saying "yeah, that ain't D&D, never was D&D, never will be D&D if we have anything to say about it." My point being that as much as you mock highly generalized systems and claim they lack drama and tension and whatnot there are plenty of people who disagree.
 

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