New Legends and Lore:Head of the Class

Retraining rules and skill attrition do not share any of the same functionality. When you don't maintain a skill then you become less proficient at performing it over the time of disuse.

Retraining doesn't work that way. You don't get to perform the same abilities that you may have used as recently as the day before. In addition, you can suddenly do things at an expert level that you have never before attempted.

Learning new abilities and having old ones degrade with neglect isn't videogamey. The binary on/off switch hotswap certainly is though.

Retraining is a reaction to the player making a mistake, not the character, though. The player takes a power she thinks would be cool, and it just doesn't work out for her.

What should the game do?

You could tell her to suck it up. You could handwave it and pretend she always took the other power. You could try for a middle group where she can change powers, but has to pay an in-game cost.

Some games/classes try and separate powers that can be used versus powers that are known. For example, a cleric "knows" all cleric spells. A Wizard can learn more spells. Choosing to learn a wizard spell that you later don't like doesn't hurt you as you just learn more spells and use them instead.

Yes, the player made a mistake. But will the game allow her to fix her mistake, or will she just have to live with it for the rest of her character's lifespan?
 

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CrazyJerome said:
Games that have tried the gambit of, "We are really complex as the main thing, but we'll provide you some prefab pieces that work 'well enough' in play," are often, err, rather optimistic about "well enough" in their assessment.

I think the same thing that causes that optimism is the same thing that causes some other problems.

When you assume a "complex" game and then just give a pre-fab, you run into problems in that parts sometimes are more complex than you'd like, and parts are sometimes simpler than you'd like.

For instance, Essentials provides a pretty simple (for 4e) character creation process, but combat is still an intimately detailed process of spatial reasoning and interruptions and action economies. You can give the fighter an aura instead of a mark, but an interrupt is an interrupt and the interactions between OA's, interrupts, shifts, reactions, and the like are still CRAZY complex. There's no good way to make that simpler.

There's also no good way to make the noncombat more complex. I'm absolutely positive that the feylock in my Sunday games would have much rather gained some sort of noncombat charm power than an additional use of Icy Skewer at 3rd level. The thief might have rather had some sort of acrobatic talent rather than an additional Backstab. But exploration and interaction aren't things that we get character options for in 4e by and large, so they just got bigger fightin' guns.

I think it's generally true that it's easier to add complexity than to take it away, so starting with a simple fighter or mage build, and then adding layers of complexity to it would probably be a better approach than starting with a complex fighter or mage build, and providing one straggling option for folks who want to take it easy.

That would also let you turn up the dial slowly, in bits and pieces, to make your complexity a la carte rather than one "newb option" and letting everything else get complicated.
 

Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table...Now let’s imagine that in a separate section of the rules—perhaps right after the core fighter or maybe in a chapter giving advanced character options—we learn that the core fighter is just a fighter with all of the choices made for it. Where the core fighter has class features, the advanced fighter has choice points such as feats and class feature menus. The core fighter simply has a set of pre-selected benefits.

If I open up my 3e Player's handbook, that sort of organization is exactly what I find. There are core starting packages that make all the fiddly choices of playing a class - including even equipment - right at the end of the class entry. Then there are sections describing the advanced options where you learn that you could have made different choices in tailoring the class exactly how you like it.

My guess is that for 95% of the market, these starting packages are just wasted space. Besides being not that innovative they just miss the point. Most cRPGs offer default starting packages and autoleveling as well, but very very few people who actually love cRPGs are going to leave those choices up to someone else). For D&D, the complexity of the system has never really been buried in the character creation, and no one jumps to HERO, Chill or even M&M because they found D&D too complex at character creation time.

D&D's real overhead has always come during combat, because D&D tracks alot of fiddly little modifiers in its quasi-simulationism, quasi-gamist combat model. Managing the little fiddly modifiers well is not only the time consuming part, but often the way to 'win'.

By breaking down the math behind the game, we can judge the relative value of a power you can use once per day and a feat that gives you a bonus to all of your attacks.

As others have pointed out, no you can't. 4e didn't even try. It gave everyone the same resource model. Other editions of D&D didn't care; balance wasn't a primary concern.

I think that baring a few notalgic players and groups with quality DMs overcome with nostalgia, there is very little desire for a game with a 48 page rule book. 3e proved nothing if not that players will continually clamor for more build options. 1e proved nothing if not that to cater to all the different ideas DMs have for 'what makes a good campaign', that you need all sorts of rules. Dragon was a fountain of optional rules back in the day and a real show case for keeping rules out of core but still helping DMs customize their campaign. No rules light system has ever made a really large impact on the market. For one thing, if you sale a complete game in 48 pages, what else do you have to sell?

If I have to point out something obvious, the really successful games of RPG history - D&D, CoC, V:tM, WEG Star Wars, Deadlands, etc. - didn't necesssarily have great rules. What they did however have was great writing, great feel, that made people want to play them. Gygax for all his organizational flaws made for really interesting reading.

The biggest problems with D&D since 3e haven't been the rules, and continually tinkering with the rules to achieve some perfect solution for everyone isn't going to help much with the problems of not stimulating creativity in DMs or failing to publish quality modules. A complex game with fewer options isn't a simple game - it's just one with less choice. In practice, most DM's are going to build there system out of the available options anyway. Granted, 3e partially drowned under the notion that everything that was published ought to be in play, but that's because 3e made this decision that the players were where the money was at and spent most of their time ensuring each new book had something to market to players (compare with 2e, for example). But even so, that wasn't a failure of the system save to the extent that WotC never wanted to say, "hey, you don't have to buy our books'. Mainly that was a failure of the DMs that were so buried but didn't want to be. DM's that want fewer options should just grow a backbone and say, "No." It is ok some times.
 

Retraining is a reaction to the player making a mistake, not the character, though. The player takes a power she thinks would be cool, and it just doesn't work out for her.

What should the game do?

You could tell her to suck it up. You could handwave it and pretend she always took the other power. You could try for a middle group where she can change powers, but has to pay an in-game cost.

Some games/classes try and separate powers that can be used versus powers that are known. For example, a cleric "knows" all cleric spells. A Wizard can learn more spells. Choosing to learn a wizard spell that you later don't like doesn't hurt you as you just learn more spells and use them instead.

Yes, the player made a mistake. But will the game allow her to fix her mistake, or will she just have to live with it for the rest of her character's lifespan?

The solution is simple enough. How can there be a mistake if you don't make choices? ;)
 

The solution is simple enough. How can there be a mistake if you don't make choices? ;)
Well, it wasn't a mistake per se. The player just went along with the default option because he didn't know better. He is now making use of the retraining rules to retroactively put right what once went wrong. It doesn't take a quantum leap of logic to see that.
 

Well, it wasn't a mistake per se. The player just went along with the default option because he didn't know better. He is now making use of the retraining rules to retroactively put right what once went wrong. It doesn't take a quantum leap of logic to see that.

What went wrong? A fighting man wears heavy armor and and is an expert with weapons. When you gain a level you roll hit points and go about your business of kicking butt.

Powers-who needs em?
 


He is now making use of the retraining rules to retroactively put right what once went wrong. It doesn't take a quantum leap of logic to see that.

I am not sure whether I should say ...

"Did the PC ever get home?"

OR

"Tell him to retrain a feat to get a familiar that he can name Al"
 

You could even collapse race down into the core options: The dwarf could be expressed as a core class, a fighter progression that focuses on durability, defense, and expertise with an axe or hammer. The core elf uses the multiclass rules to combine fighter and wizard, and the core halfling uses a preset rogue advancement chart. Choosing race could be part of the advanced rules, making setup even faster for new players or players who don’t want to spend a lot of time customizing their characters.

Hm. Mearls, hinting that 5e might optionally support the old BECMI race-classes. Or even use them as the default, with AD&D "pick your race" as the advanced option. Me likey!

However, I do agree with what many people on this thread have said: character creation/advancement is only one slice of the complexity pie. Many other topics remain to be addressed. Bring back abstract, no-minis-necessary combat. Bring back rules for exploring the dungeon: the ten-minute "turn" was an elegant unit of out-of-combat game-time, in spite of its confusing name, which structured exploration and focused play on managing time vs. resources, avoiding wandering monsters, etc. And, of course, the most meaningful choice a player can make should not be the selection of a feat or a power, but something actually done in game... for example, dropping food or treasure to distract a monster and thereby avoid a combat. Happens all the time in BECMI... vs., I'm guessing, pretty much never in 4e.
 
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