New Legends and Lore:Head of the Class

[ExploderWizard]

There are multiple encounters in the real Against the Giants - which I'm rereading in the course of adapting G2 to 4e - in which no stats are given except those necessary to run combat encounters. Would you therefore infer that no other approach is permitted to those encounters by orthodox AD&D?

LOL @ real Against the Giants.

None are given because they are not required.

Want to parley/negotiate? The reaction rules are in the DMG.

Want to flee an unwanted combat? The rules for evasion & pursuit are in the DMG.

Want to explore/search? The rules for time passage/resource consumption are in the rules.

In the adventure I was referring to, no stats for specific NPCs were provided. Should a combat take place I can reference these where again?

 

[pemerton]

What if I want to collapse a cave on some giants? Or push them over the edge of the cliff (neither the DMG nor the UA unarmed combat rules talk about forced movement)?

And the 4e DMG gives the required rules for statting up your skill challenge NPCs as monsters - assign AC, hit points, attack bonus and damage as is level appropriate.

I think it's obvious that there is a big difference between 4e play and AD&D play (at least the core play that each ruleset supports). But I think on this particular point, about the nature of encounter design that each ruleset supports, you're seeing something that isn't really there. 4e gives very robust support for improvising skill challenges, and reasonably (although less) robust support for improvising combats.

 

[ExploderWizard]

What if I want to collapse a cave on some giants? Or push them over the edge of the cliff (neither the DMG nor the UA unarmed combat rules talk about forced movement)?

Is the cave unstable? How do you want to go about collapsing it?

Would your dwarf care to charge a frost giant and try his luck knocking him back?

Operational play is not about guaranteed chances of success at the ridiculous due to inclusion of such in a rulebook.

 

[pemerton]

Is the cave unstable? How do you want to go about collapsing it?

Well, however I want to do it (let's say I'm going to fire a 10-dice lightning bolt into the ice that covers the ceiling), neither the DMG nor the module tells me what the mechanical resolution is.

Would your dwarf care to charge a frost giant and try his luck knocking him back?

Operational play is not about guaranteed chances of success at the ridiculous due to inclusion of such in a rulebook.

Hang on - so it's plausible that my dwarf can hack a giant to death with a hand axe, but I can't push it back? There seems to me to be variable thresholds of plausibility being applied here.

And what if I use an Enlarge spell, or my ranger's pet copper dragon, or my MUs charmed giant, or whatever the relevant Bigby's spell is (does the slippery ice enhance this?)? There are a pretty good range of options available in AD&D. Both the module and the DMG leave me on my own, though. I don't infer from that that those options are ruled out - just that the books aren't going to cover everything, even fairly forseeable stuff (I mean there's a cliff with 100' plus drops all around the Rift - they must have foreseen that pushing would be tried).

 

[ExploderWizard]

Well, however I want to do it (let's say I'm going to fire a 10-dice lightning bolt into the ice that covers the ceiling), neither the DMG nor the module tells me what the mechanical resolution is.

It doesn't need to. A DM handles these issues. That is what running the game vs being a rulebook translation device is all about.

The plans seems like it could work BTW. Anything under that collapse could take 10d6 damage from falling ice/rock easily (save for half)and possibly be trapped for a few rounds as well.

Hang on - so it's plausible that my dwarf can hack a giant to death with a hand axe, but I can't push it back? There seems to me to be variable thresholds of plausibility being applied here.

Perhaps if your dwarf had giant strength (even without the mass) the giant wouldn't be expecting that and you might have even odds (or a bit better due to suprise value) to bull rush him off the cliff.

And what if I use an Enlarge spell, or my ranger's pet copper dragon, or my MUs charmed giant, or whatever the relevant Bigby's spell is (does the slippery ice enhance this?)? There are a pretty good range of options available in AD&D. Both the module and the DMG leave me on my own, though. I don't infer from that that those options are ruled out - just that the books aren't going to cover everything, even fairly forseeable stuff (I mean there's a cliff with 100' plus drops all around the Rift - they must have foreseen that pushing would be tried).

These and quite a few other options may come up to be handled as they arise.

You are left on your own because this is your game. It belongs to your group and not some rulebook. Games that try to forsee and thus provide everything still fail at that and become bloated in the attempt.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

In the adventure I was referring to, no stats for specific NPCs were provided. Should a combat take place I can reference these where again?

The Monster Manual?

 

[FireLance]

In the adventure I was referring to, no stats for specific NPCs were provided. Should a combat take place I can reference these where again?

A DM handles these issues. That is what running the game vs being a rulebook translation device is all about.

Problem solved!

 

[Hussar]

At a glance not assuming heavy houseruling I would agree with that assessment because of two little words:

THE ENCOUNTER

XP in 4E is gained through overcoming challenges which are made up of individual encounters. If the encounter is set up as a combat challenge then the foes must be overcome to earn the xp. Treasure is a reward for jumping through the hoops of the challenges.

Throwing down food to distract them to what end? No combat = no xp for the encounter.

In classic/AD&D the primary xp source is treasure and the acquisition thereof by any means possible. Monster xp was just the gravy on top. Looking for fights rather than loot could be the fast track to a short career. Wandering monsters usually had little treasure and so were often not worth using the resources required to fight them. Thus dropping food/low end treasure to distract pursuers could often be a sound investment.

If one were to award xp for treasure gained in 4E and scale down the xp for combat then it certainly could work there as well.

Wait... what?

I resolve the encounter, defeated the monster, and you, the DM don't award me xp for this?

Considering that earlier editions only awarded xp if you KILLED the opponent, while 3e and 4e award it if you DEFEAT the opponent, I'm really not sure where you're getting this.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Wait... what?

I resolve the encounter, defeated the monster, and you, the DM don't award me xp for this?

Considering that earlier editions only awarded xp if you KILLED the opponent, while 3e and 4e award it if you DEFEAT the opponent, I'm really not sure where you're getting this.

Well, if it became a skill challenge then there would be xp of course.

 

[ExploderWizard]

The Monster Manual?

Nothing there. Not even a mention of level/role to use as a benchmark.

Problem solved!

LOL! true. Run the damn thing in 1E so statblocks on the fly are a sane option.