New Legends & Lore (Rules, rules, rules)

[ExploderWizard]

I wouldn't disagree with any of that.

Ok.

Thankfully, that style of adventure has fallen out of favor.

Thankfully to SOME, Sadly to OTHERS, and of no consequence one way or another to SOME.

This is where you seem to not really get what you were agreeing with.

 

[Gryph]

Ok.





Thankfully to SOME, Sadly to OTHERS, and of no consequence one way or another to SOME.

This is where you seem to not really get what you were agreeing with.

Ok.

 

[Walking Dad]

...

The 15 minute workday is an example of emergent gameplay. There's no rule that says adventurers should end the adventure once they've "blown their load", but it happens because of the rules in place (i.e. Daily powerz).

This is bad and emerged from Vancian casting. 4e actually reduced this by giving useful encounter powers.

 

[Rogue Agent]

This is bad and emerged from Vancian casting. 4e actually reduced this by giving useful encounter powers.

Not really. First, it emerged from the combination of powerful abilities that have limited daily uses AND a limited scenario structure which allows the players to control the pace. (And this was probably exacerbated by "arms-race" table dynamics.)

4E still has daily powers, so the exact same carrot is still in place. And they added healing surges, which creates a hard cap for the adventuring day which didn't previously exist.

In order to mechanically solve the 15-minute adventuring day you need to eliminate both (a) the carrots for blowing your load and then resting for the day and (b) daily hard caps. 4E didn't do that.

Fortunately, its pretty easy to eliminate the problem by not designing such limited scenarios. There are dozens and dozens of way to avoid the narrow limitations of such scenarios; and most of them improve the game in other ways, too.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

4E doesn't reduce the 15 minute adventuring day at all. What it does is make the needs and means of doing so more obvious to beginning DMs--the intent, I think, being to encourage those DMs to move to those means early in their careers, rather than have the problem sneak up on them.

Unfortunately, the placement of milestones, with the magic item daily use and action points being tied to those, was meant as a mechanical means to the same end. It is inadequate to the job, but created the early buzz that 4E could mechanically remove the 15 minute adventuring day, when it does not. This unnessarily complicated the matter without really adding much to the game.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I never had an issue with the 15 minute adventuring day in any edition.

 

[Agamon]

I never had an issue with the 15 minute adventuring day in any edition.

Yeah, it's not inherent to the game, or even any editions. It comes more from certain styles of play. So it may be an issue with some, and not with others.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I never had an issue with the 15 minute adventuring day in any edition.

Neither did my groups. We figured out pretty fast that the mechanics didn't stop it, and dealt with it otherwise.

 

[Nagol]

Well, there are a couple of sections in the DMG 1e where it comes close (I'm away from the library right now so I can't get a page citation). The first is where Gygax is discussing getting a group to act and suggests surprise attacks from invisible mummies and bolts of lightning as possibilities. The second is where the DM is sternly encouraged to get the party to use cursed magic items through trickery if necessary regardless of the safeguards put in place by the party.

Here are two passages I thought were jerky when I read the DMG the first time 30+ years ago and still think are jerky today:

Strong steps short of expulsion can be an extra random monster die, obviously rolled, the attack of an ethereal mummy (which always strikes by surprise, naturally), points of damage from "blue bolts from the heavens" striking the offender's head, or the permanent loss of a point of charisma (appropriately) from the character belonging to the offender. If these have to be enacted regularly, then they are not effective and stronger measures must be taken. Again, the ultimate answer to such a problem is simply to exclude the disruptive person from further gatherings.

It is incumbent upon the Dungeon Master to do his utmost to convince players that a cursed scroll should be read. This is to be accomplished through duplicity, coercion and threat, etc.

 

[howandwhy99]

Our opinions are shaped, in part by personal experiences.

Its kind of like that scene from the movie Crocodile Dundee where Mick is in the hotel room and is asked if he has ever watched TV. He mentions that he saw some tv briefly years ago at a buddies place. He then turns on the tv and the intro to 'I Love Lucy' is playing. His response : " Yep. Thats what I saw".

Chances are, if you play a game many times and the play experiences are very similar then whatever you experienced will be regarded as "the norm" barring firsthand experience that contradicts that.

The thing is, there are so many approaches to playing D&D that there is effectively no "norm" and this was by design. Old school D&D doesn't have to be about jerk DMs and paranoid players any more than 4E has to be about endless dice rolling and tiresome combats.

You must spread some Experience Points around before giving it to ExploderWizard again.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that. By the mid 80s I and my regular group were moving strongly away from that style of play. But the style was not the sole province of the "jerk" DM. The elements that NeonChameleon pointed out were in the rules and were included in the early published modules by TSR. There's no valid call to dismiss his claims of that experience.

Thankfully, that style of adventure has fallen out of favor.

Yeah, there is some horrible advice in the earlier books. But there is also some awesome advice. That's what I'd take it as though, guidelines not rules. There are suggested rule elements in those books, but they aren't the game.

Gygax said in print some stuff I wouldn't try and defend, but he has enough great stuff in print too that there is plenty to like. I use that stuff and leave the rest.