New Legends & Lore

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Mearls writes about increasing complexity, and the Fighter. Not behind a paywall.

The red question at the end is nonsensical, but the paragraph before it reveals what's intended: do you like easy-to-play characters that are still very effective, or do you need to make 20 decisions about your special unique snowflake in order to kill goblins?

Clearly, I have my biases. ;)

FWIW, I am a fan of the Legends and Lore articles. Even when Mearls seems to kind of miss the boat with the poll (he seems to exclude a middle ground here, as he has in other polls), it's an interesting look into how we got where we are today.
 

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Good article. Shame it's about 4 years too late (or 3 years too early, depending on your point of view).

My answer to the question: I want the game to support both. There should be simple classes for those who want them, and complex classes for people who want those. Moreover, there should be a "simple Fighter" and a "complex Fighter", and a "simple Wizard" as well as a "complex Wizard" - the old-edition dichotomy of "simple Fighter, complex Wizard" wasn't great, either.

One other thing on the topic: in our last 4e campaign, I got stuck with the role of "resident rules-expert" (despite how laughable that actually is). The point where I had to explain things to a player for the dozenth time was also the point at which I concluded 4e is just too damn complex. (And, yes, that's despite it being an improvement on 3e in some of these regards.)
 

From a system standpoint, I agree with [MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION]. Creating equally effective options for both complex and simple versions of the same "class" is the way to go. Obviously some players will want simplicity while others like variety. Me personally, I love a system where not every fighter looks more or less the same or where the only question you need to ask the ranger is "Ranged or Melee?" to know how their character ticks. Part of this though comes from my preference to go for flavor in my choices as opposed to simply going for max effectiveness. That don't mean the simple fighter is wrong though if you catch my meaning.
 

I voted for the preference of character customization. If every fighter is equal, you'd have no incentive to play the class again. In 4e, for instance, you can play two Fighters side-by-side and they feel entirely different.
 

Adding my voice to the "why not options for either" camp.

I like the design of 4e in a lot of ways, but when they added the Knight and Slayer, it scratched an itch I didn't know I had. Looking back, it was plain as the nose on my face.

And even with their simpler structure, Knights and Slayers are very customizable to many varied concepts.

I don't know if I'd want to go back to older edition fighters though. The only thing that made them different was what weapon they specialized in.

More options = more fun for more people. Simple for when you need simple, complex for when you want complex.
 

I'm with those who say that supporting both is a good approach. I like having enough options to truly distinguish my character, and let me feel like I can build a unique concept and still feel effective with it. I also like making chargen and play as quick and easy as possible.

I don't think 4E has got it quite right, but it has experimented in ways that I think will lead to a good solution. Having both the Essentials fighters and the original goes a long way towards satisfying both approaches.
 

What I would really like is a system that de-emphasizes mechanical decisions during chargen, and emphasizes concept decisions instead.

Let's say I'm creating a fighter character. I want to make choices about my character and I want those choices to make a difference--they should be more than cosmetic; the character should play differently depending on the decisions I make.

But that doesn't mean I want to spend hours crunching numbers and comparing feat choices. I want to make decisions like: "Okay, my character is a grizzled old mercenary veteran who fights with a battle-axe in each hand, is good at scouting, and can drink a dwarf under the table." And having made those decisions, I want to be able to quickly and easily translate the relevant ones into mechanical terms, without having to worry about whether I'm gimping my PC in the process. ("Relevant" being an important word here. I need a mechanic to describe dual wielding battle-axes. I probably don't need a mechanic to describe massive alcohol tolerance.)

I don't think this is as hard as it seems. There are three key rules to observe when designing such a system:
  1. Each PC option has a clearly defined concept attached to it. This is one of 4E's biggest failings in my book, though it happened in 3E too--there are a lot of feats and powers that don't seem to correspond to much of anything going on in the game world. It should be clear at a glance what any given option represents.
  2. PC options do not stack. 4E had the right idea here with siloing, but didn't go far enough. The essence of "optimization" is finding character options--feats, powers, class features, etc.--that can be stacked on top of each other to create intense focus on a single ability: Essentials slayer + base Str 18 + base Dex 14 + half-orc + Weapon Focus + Bracers of Mighty Striking = lots of damage*. Anything that lets the player pile numbers together to make bigger numbers will, by the fact of its existence, create that wonderful tension between "make my character cool" and "make my character effective" that makes chargen such a joy. My ideal chargen system would involve zero arithmetic**. More generally, any time you allow one option to improve another (say, a feat that adds knockdown to certain attack powers), it contributes to this issue.
  3. Every decision should be a single, significant choice. If I want a fighting style that involves pushing enemies back and knocking them around the battlefield, that should be a single decision--not half an hour scouring the Compendium for stuff that grants push and slide effects. Essentials is a start on this but needs more.
What all of this leads to is a system that is strongly class- and archetype-based. Back in the day, I used to think class-based systems were lame; point-based, granular, super-detail-oriented was the True Way. I do not think this any more.

[size=-2]*I'm sure it's possible to do better than this.

**And I'm including in "chargen" any step required to get your character ready to do something in play. For instance, in the old White Wolf games, you make skill checks by rolling a number of dice equal to base stat + skill. Before you can do this, you have to add your base stat and your skill together. That counts. You may do it in your head on the fly rather than beforehand on your character sheet, but it creates the same dilemma during chargen: If I want to be really good at Skill X, I have to put dots in Stat Y even if it doesn't fit my concept.[/size]
 
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[MENTION=58197]Dausuul[/MENTION] - this almost sounds like a classless system...

One thing I like about Essentials is the more basic fighters. A new person to the game can be introduced by Human Fighter again without a nearly overwhelming amount of information/choices and the e-classes are pretty optimized out of the box so it's far more difficult to fall into the 3.5e "traps" like Toughness.
 


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