Of the various flavors of Alchemist, Vivisectionist appears to be the most popular one among character optimizers, from what I've seen. It's definitely a solid choice. Many people would recommend that you go Vivisectionist instead of Rogue, in fact. Is that what you were thinking of doing, or did you intend to multiclass Rogue and Vivisectionist?
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- Thread starter Valdras86
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I had planned to start Rogue, as no one in the party has trap finding, plus I wanted the extra skill points. I didn't like the loss of some of the class skills, nor the loss of weapon choices.
I figure I would take probably two levels in Alchemist, so my progression would be:
Lvl1: Rogue 1,
Lvl2: Rogue 1, Alchemist 1
Lvl3: Rogue 2, Alchemist 1
Lvl4: Rogue 2, Alchemist 2
Lvl5: Rogue 3, Alchemist 2
Lvl6: Rogue 3, Alchemist 2, Assassin 1
or should I take 3 levels in alchemist instead? Alchemist 2 was mostly for the poison use.. I could always take Feral Mutagen and Beastmorph.. are natural weapons any good for sneak attacking?
Or should I be more focused on a ranged weapon for a rogue?
I figure I would take probably two levels in Alchemist, so my progression would be:
Lvl1: Rogue 1,
Lvl2: Rogue 1, Alchemist 1
Lvl3: Rogue 2, Alchemist 1
Lvl4: Rogue 2, Alchemist 2
Lvl5: Rogue 3, Alchemist 2
Lvl6: Rogue 3, Alchemist 2, Assassin 1
or should I take 3 levels in alchemist instead? Alchemist 2 was mostly for the poison use.. I could always take Feral Mutagen and Beastmorph.. are natural weapons any good for sneak attacking?
Or should I be more focused on a ranged weapon for a rogue?
Sneak Attack happens with every single attack that hits while you have the Sneak Attack active, not just once per round. So yes, anything that gets you more attacks is good for Sneak Attack. That would be why Vivisectionist Alchemist is so often used. Invariably, the Vivisectionist hopes to use natural weapons to Do Nasty Things to people with a Full Attack. Of course, setting up a Sneak Attack with a Full Attack is difficult- not impossible, but difficult. The best way is usually to have a flanking buddy. Since your party appears to be mostly melee people, that shouldn't be a huge problem for you, at least as long as your party works together.
Ranged Sneak Attack can be nasty too of course, but you'll need to take Rapid Shot to get the multiple-attack thing working early. Ranged attacking is very feat-intensive in PF, so you'll be feat-starved if you go that route (and your plan of doing Expertise and such will be out the window because of all the ranged feats you'll need).
Alchemist gets generally more useful abilities than Rogue; Trapfinding is pretty much the only thing Rogue gets that Vivisectionist can't (that's worth having in a typical game, anyway). Importantly, Alchemist gets Extracts, which are typically buffs for yourself; that makes you a more self-sufficient character (always a plus in an Evil game). I'd go Rogue 2/Alchemist 3 if you're really dead-set on multiclassing, you'll get more that way (Trap Sense really does not compare to what you'd get with Alchemist 3).
Ranged Sneak Attack can be nasty too of course, but you'll need to take Rapid Shot to get the multiple-attack thing working early. Ranged attacking is very feat-intensive in PF, so you'll be feat-starved if you go that route (and your plan of doing Expertise and such will be out the window because of all the ranged feats you'll need).
Alchemist gets generally more useful abilities than Rogue; Trapfinding is pretty much the only thing Rogue gets that Vivisectionist can't (that's worth having in a typical game, anyway). Importantly, Alchemist gets Extracts, which are typically buffs for yourself; that makes you a more self-sufficient character (always a plus in an Evil game). I'd go Rogue 2/Alchemist 3 if you're really dead-set on multiclassing, you'll get more that way (Trap Sense really does not compare to what you'd get with Alchemist 3).
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I really wanted to use a greatsword and improved feint. But I guess the natural attacks look like they are better in the long run...
Maybe I should only take 1 level of rogue, then level as a alchemist, so that way I have Stealth and Bluff as class skills. Then I can be a super scary mauling assassin guy.
Make the Feral Mutagen look like a panther... now that's stealthy... yeah, I like that idea.
Maybe I should only take 1 level of rogue, then level as a alchemist, so that way I have Stealth and Bluff as class skills. Then I can be a super scary mauling assassin guy.
Make the Feral Mutagen look like a panther... now that's stealthy... yeah, I like that idea.
Honestly, I thought you were doing Rogue for Trapfinding and Evasion, I didn't even think about class skills. 
Evasion can be worth having also; I should revise my previous statement to include that with Trapfinding. Tends to be better at higher levels rather than lower ones, but worth having regardless. Bluff, you could take a trait to get as a class skill (if your game uses traits); I am not aware of one offhand that grants Stealth however. The Greatsword + feint thing is a valid option, if you really like that; you will definitely want to do a level of Fighter or Barbarian with Rogue if you do that though (Rogues aren't proficient with Greatswords on their own, and neither are Alchemists).
I was just advising you on Alchemist because I've played one (though not a Vivisectionist- my guy was a Psychonaut) and seen the Vivisectionist thing done. Vivisectionist, I've seen multiple times with "build threads" where people discuss character builds, and once in an actual game I was in- my character in that game was a Paladin and the Vivisectionist was a Tiefling who went the Feral Mutagen route and designed it to look like a transformation into full demon (the player really liked the drama potential, plus we had a Synthesist Summoner who was going with an Eidolon like a Celestial for him to also play against). That Vivisectionist favored taking a round or two to buff up for combat, typically by doing his Mutagen one round and Enlarge Person the next, then wading into combat for a flank and ripping something to shreds.
Evasion can be worth having also; I should revise my previous statement to include that with Trapfinding. Tends to be better at higher levels rather than lower ones, but worth having regardless. Bluff, you could take a trait to get as a class skill (if your game uses traits); I am not aware of one offhand that grants Stealth however. The Greatsword + feint thing is a valid option, if you really like that; you will definitely want to do a level of Fighter or Barbarian with Rogue if you do that though (Rogues aren't proficient with Greatswords on their own, and neither are Alchemists).I was just advising you on Alchemist because I've played one (though not a Vivisectionist- my guy was a Psychonaut) and seen the Vivisectionist thing done. Vivisectionist, I've seen multiple times with "build threads" where people discuss character builds, and once in an actual game I was in- my character in that game was a Paladin and the Vivisectionist was a Tiefling who went the Feral Mutagen route and designed it to look like a transformation into full demon (the player really liked the drama potential, plus we had a Synthesist Summoner who was going with an Eidolon like a Celestial for him to also play against). That Vivisectionist favored taking a round or two to buff up for combat, typically by doing his Mutagen one round and Enlarge Person the next, then wading into combat for a flank and ripping something to shreds.
blargney the second
blargney the minute's son
Barbarian and rogue taste great together. They have many class features that mesh well together. You could alternate barb then rogue for the first few levels. The big hit die at first level makes for some excellent survivability.
Looking at your party, you have A LOT of up close power but the only one who can do anytyhing significant at range is the ranger (assuming he's going bow style). You have a real Divine theme to your party. The Zen archer gives plenty of attacks and your arrows scale up with your unarmed damage.
If you are certain about the Rogue, then go Vivi like paradox said. 2 of your party wear heavy armor and are quite likely to be in the thick of it most of the time and th monk 'should' be mobile enough to give you flanking whenever you need it so I wouldn't really bother with feinting. Then again, teamwork might not be paramount in an evil party.
As both scout and buffer, you are in a pretty good position as you can begin buffing before the fight begins and probably won't insta die if you are caught.
If you are certain about the Rogue, then go Vivi like paradox said. 2 of your party wear heavy armor and are quite likely to be in the thick of it most of the time and th monk 'should' be mobile enough to give you flanking whenever you need it so I wouldn't really bother with feinting. Then again, teamwork might not be paramount in an evil party.
As both scout and buffer, you are in a pretty good position as you can begin buffing before the fight begins and probably won't insta die if you are caught.
I decided it would be more in theme for my character to be a ranged rogue, so I am gonna change my want to going for arcane archer instead. That way if the party gets in trouble i can just slip away... Lol
I also managed to convince the GM to allow me to be a tiefling, so this game should be fun. I'm playing this Friday so I'll post afterwards.
Any advice on how to run a ranged rogue?
I also managed to convince the GM to allow me to be a tiefling, so this game should be fun. I'm playing this Friday so I'll post afterwards.
Any advice on how to run a ranged rogue?
blargney the second
blargney the minute's son
By default any given character can only really excel at a few facets of the game. It would be easier for us to help you if we knew what facets are highest priority for you. I'll list some of the bigger options and their subflavors ... if you can tell us the top three or four that'd be cool.
1) Damage output (melee, ranged, spells)
2) Combat buffs (self, other, party)
3) Utility spells (transportation, obstacle removal, divination, etc)
4) Skills (individual)
5) Combat debuffs for enemies
6) Healing and effect removal
7) Defenses (hps, saves, AC, evasion/uncanny, resists/immunes)
8) Pets (familiar, companion, summons, leadership )
9) Else
Thanks!
-blarg
1) Damage output (melee, ranged, spells)
2) Combat buffs (self, other, party)
3) Utility spells (transportation, obstacle removal, divination, etc)
4) Skills (individual)
5) Combat debuffs for enemies
6) Healing and effect removal
7) Defenses (hps, saves, AC, evasion/uncanny, resists/immunes)
8) Pets (familiar, companion, summons, leadership )
9) Else
Thanks!
-blarg
