New race: The Sylvani. And a racial Prestige Class(Edited again)

[Merlion]

Well, see I dont care about upper krusts system. I care about the d20 system, and the PH. Again, you have sidestepped my invitation to directly compare my race to the PH races..in pure PH terms.
Interesting to note that according to upper krusts system, Gnomes and Dwarves are also "over the top". You said a race should come to 4.5 or less...Gnome is 5.5 and Dwarf is 7.25. Oh and elf at 4.75
Either your system is off...or 3 of the standard PH races are unbalanced. Which do you think it is?

 

[Beholder Bob]

Again, you have sidestepped my invitation to directly compare my race to the PH races..in pure PH terms.

The PHB does not provide a numeric framework to compare the racial abilities and their cumalitive worth. You can not compare it in pure PH terms - it will have to boil down to 'I think this is roughly equal to that, cause of this'. We tried that already with the -2 dex/+2 natural armor - and that boils down to opinion. Use the savage species book if you need 'official' ratings - though that automatically starts you out at +1 ecl - that darn natural armor.

Interesting to note that according to upper krusts system, Gnomes and Dwarves are also "over the top". You said a race should come to 4.5 or less...Gnome is 5.5 and Dwarf is 7.25. Oh and elf at 4.75
Either your system is off...or 3 of the standard PH races are unbalanced. Which do you think it is?

My opinion - they are imbalanced. The races were made not with a breakdown of value, but of transfering past editions over, trying to keep flavor and meet expectations. So the races would almost have to be imbalanced - eh? It is not a bad thing to be imbalanced (or, perhaps we should say, have a wide margin) - but as a general rule, balance is prefered. By my and upper krusts system - we found dwarves & gnomes have more benefits (in value if not number) then the other races. You may disagree with us - but outside of the savage species book - there is no attempt to quantify the races. I made my system because I was making new races - and wanted to be able to more then just 'eyeball them' for balance. If you go by straight PHB - there is no formal way to compare.

For the record - have you looked at savage species yet? You should - it is the only 'official' way of measuring races published right now. I (and I believe upper krust) find it a clumsy tool - which is why we have made our own systems.

If I, Upper Krust, and that book agree that your race is ECL +1 unless reigned in, does it matter to you?

 

[Merlion]

A better question...if your going to say that several PH races are unbalanced...does any of it matter at all?
And I do disgaree...in a fashion. I think the Dwarf and Gnome are fine...but the Half Orc, Half Elf, and some others are a little sparse.
This is also why trying for perfect balance is somewhat vain. I mean, Aasimar and Tiefling get a +1 level adjustment, but are they really that much better than Gnome or Elf?

The PHB does not provide a numeric framework to compare the racial abilities and their cumalitive worth. You can not compare it in pure PH terms - it will have to boil down to 'I think this is roughly equal to that, cause of this'.

See, thats what everyone seems to want, but to me just sitting down and comparing using common sense as the guide seems perfectly fine to me.
I compare my race to say the Gnome, Elf, and Halfling and see that it gets about the same number of abilities...and about the same overall potency.

 

[Merlion]

See its not that I dont want or care about peoples opnions...its that if you cant back them up with reasons..and if you cant show me how my work is unbalanced compared to core examples of similiar things (race to races, spells to spells etc), then I'm going to disagree with your opnion.
You say my race is overpowered, but you havent presented me with any really compelling reasons why. And your system that also shows half the races in the PH to be overpowered, while interesting and valid, isnt a compelling reason.

 

[Beholder Bob]

See its not that I dont want or care about peoples opnions...its that if you cant back them up with reasons..and if you cant show me how my work is unbalanced compared to core examples of similiar things (race to races, spells to spells etc), then I'm going to disagree with your opnion.
You say my race is overpowered, but you havent presented me with any really compelling reasons why. And your system that also shows half the races in the PH to be overpowered, while interesting and valid, isnt a compelling reason.

As I said - if you eye ball it, it comes down to 'this feels like that, I think it is..." You are adding things NOT in the PHB, so how can I compare them w/out resorting to opinion you have already refuted? I said...
Natural armor is damn fine - too good for the balance
Speak with plants w/unlimited uses is too good for the balance
Giving a mental stat adjust requires more balance

These above are my compelling reasons.

On each of these, you disagree with me - as to the importance and potency of the gain. How can I compare them to PHB races that do not share these traits for comparison - and if we disagree with their fundamental power - we can not agree on what is balanced compared to them. You ask for a presentation of power comparison - but then refuse the only one I can give you (since you haven't used savage species and one does not exist in the PHB). I do not think the race is balanced, am open to discusion on it - but you refuse to consider the only other 2 measuring systems I am aware of. So - if it makes you happy, call them ecl +0. Hell, call them ecl -4 if you want. If we can not agree as to how good natural armor or speak with plants is, for instance - how can we discuss the value of this race?

Yes - the PHB races are not too balanced - but since they are core, I work with them. Some races are a bit 'over the top' - this does not mean you should make all new races as tough as the toughest race. Note - the spells are not all 'equal' - mg missile is the absolute top of the power acceptable for spell creation - this does not mean you should make all new spells equal to magic missile - the same goes for the races. That is why I use 4.5 for races.

BB

 

[Graywolf-ELM]

I just noticed this thread, something to me looks real similar to a race I recently read in Dragon Magazine. The race that taught the Elves. Just caught my interest, now I have to go find the article.

Sorry for the non-content post.

GW

 

[Merlion]

double post

 

[Merlion]

Natural armor is damn fine - too good for the balance

But you have yet to give me a reason why, aside from referencing savage species, a non core source that I dont have access to to evaluate

Speak with plants w/unlimited uses is too good for the balance

well, your system rates spells solely according to their spell level, with no thought given to actual usefulness. Having unlimited Speak with Plants is very different from say unlimited Dispel Magic, or Fireball. Just like having Animate Rope as an unlimited ability isnt the same as having Magic Missile or Mage Armor as an unlimited ability.

Giving a mental stat adjust requires more balance

Not according to the DMG.

On each of these, you disagree with me - as to the importance and potency of the gain. How can I compare them to PHB races that do not share these traits for comparison - and if we disagree with their fundamental power - we can not agree on what is balanced compared to them. You ask for a presentation of power comparison - but then refuse the only one I can give you (since you haven't used savage species and one does not exist in the PHB).

Most of their traits are similiar to traits possessed by PH races. And some PH races have abilities that cant really be compared to others. Only Gnomes gain a free Spell Focus. Only Humans get an extra feat of their choice. But we can still measure them against each other, pretty accurately to my mind.

If we can not agree as to how good natural armor or speak with plants is, for instance - how can we discuss the value of this race?

The only reason we cant agree about those things is that you havent presented reasons for why you feel as you do about them. How is a +2 natural armor bonus drasticaly better than a +1 to save DCs with a spell school (Gnomes) or a stackable +1 bonus to all saves (Halfling).

Yes - the PHB races are not too balanced - but since they are core, I work with them. Some races are a bit 'over the top' -

Or perhaps some of them are sub par. Or some combination of the 2.

 

[Beholder Bob]

..But you have yet to give me a reason why, aside from referencing savage species, a non core source that I dont have access to to evaluate

Ack.

..well, your system rates spells solely according to their spell level, with no thought given to actual usefulness...

1) the pricing is for 1/day use, not unlimited use. The speak w/plants would rate a +3 to use 1/day - I gave it a price break of good measure in my evaluation of it. It is assumed (though I did not enter it) that the spells are self effecting except under careful scrutiny.

...some PH races have abilities that cant really be compared to others. Only Gnomes gain a free Spell Focus. Only Humans get an extra feat of their choice. But we can still measure them against each other, pretty accurately to my mind.

We can measure them against each other because they are presented as balanced against each other. Given that assumption - you derive your values from there. Only humans get a bonus feat, only gnomes get the spell focus, only.... and by comparing them you can attribute to each of these a relative power level or value.

The only reason we cant agree about those things is that you havent presented reasons for why you feel as you do about them.

Ack.

How is a +2 natural armor bonus drasticaly better than a +1 to save DCs with a spell school (Gnomes) or a stackable +1 bonus to all saves (Halfling).

See above.

Or perhaps some of them are sub par. Or some combination of the 2.

That is my assumption - so I attempted to create an average for future races - rather then balancing them to the most potent or weakest races. Thus my system.

I wish you well in developing your race - I'm pulling out of the feedback dept 'cause I get dizzy doing circles.

BB

 

[Sledge]

BTW I don't get this speak with plants because they are plants thing. I mean humans don't get speak with animals do they? I would rather give them proficiency in a language that sentient plants use.