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New race: The Sylvani. And a racial Prestige Class(Edited again)
- Thread starter Merlion
- Start date
To be blunt, I don't like these guys much because they every racial ability seems geared to druids, and some of these are over the top. But I think some work could make them better.
-2 Dex for +2 Wis is a fair trade, especially for druids. But it really helps clerics and low-dex fighters because they don't care about dex, they are going to be in full-plate anyway. And you add in natural armor later to make it even better for these guys. I would make these tree-people smaller, but still medium-sized, and give them a -2 STR instead of DEX.
I suppose if you go with the -2 STR idea, you could make them actually small creatures. You'd have to tack on some more features though.
Good, but I could see them being 20 feet if you want to add another feature or keep one I want to cut. I wouldn't give them the dwarf heavy armor thing though. They are already geared toward heavy armor with the -2 DEX thing. Actually I'd only go to 20ft move if you go for -2 STR.
I've noticed this in all your races, haven't I? Low-light is very useful. I wouldn't be giving it out so easily. Yes the forest lurkers can justify it, but is it necessary for balance?
Totally out there. +2! No standard race has +2 to AC across the board. Halflings get effectively that via to different mechanics, but giving out +2 is too much. Even +1 offsets much of the DEX penalty for some people, and if you descide to go heavy armor (and who wouldn't) this natural armor is free. +1 Natural armor at most.
I don't like this anymore than other people. Giving out 4th level spells at will isn't something for a +O LA race. I'd say they can communicate with plants for one round per level. Maybe add this full ability in at the end of a racial paragon class. Or how about Plant Empathy that works like Wild Empathy but with plants instead.
This is okay. I wish there were a [Plant] descriptor so this could be clearer. So if a Sylvani wizard fireballs a person next to a tree, does the fireball deal extra damage to the tree, to the person, or both?
You might need to cut this for mechanical reasons. Instead how about plants suffer -1 on saves versus spells cast by Sylvani?
I like the Knowledge (nature) because it is INT based and stacks with the druidic ability making Druid Sylvani very knowledgable. But Sense Motive? First it is WIS based, so Sylvani really get +3 because of extra wisdom. Second, I don't see it, not at all. Survival makes more sense, but it is another WIS skill that is going to be in class. They don't need +3 on Survival. Are Sylvani supposed to be the best trackers in the land.
You seem to like giving out skill bonuses, so how about keeping the +2 to Knowledge Nature, and giving them some kind of forest sense like the dwarf's stonesence - The Sylvani can use search to detect traps in the forest as a rogue.
I don't mind this. +4 is a lot, but less than a halfling gets. If you make them small, the bonus should only be +2. Maybe add to move silently too if you drop the WIS skills from above.
Maybe add +4 to disguise skills when trying to look like normal foliage, or maybe not?
Of course, but you might consider going with a class that doesn't get so much for the bonus wisdom: ranger. They are woodsy would work just as well, but would give the humans and half-elves something reason to go druid.
In summary, my version would be
+2 WIS, -2 STR
Medium Size
Speak with plants for up to one round per level per day
Sylvani get +1 on DCs of their spells against plants
+1 Natural Armor
+2 Knowledge (Nature)
+2 hide and move silently in a forest
Forest sense - can search for forest traps as a rogue
I think with the natural armor this would be a very popular race.
Merlion said:
-2 Dex for +2 Wis is a fair trade, especially for druids. But it really helps clerics and low-dex fighters because they don't care about dex, they are going to be in full-plate anyway. And you add in natural armor later to make it even better for these guys. I would make these tree-people smaller, but still medium-sized, and give them a -2 STR instead of DEX.
I suppose if you go with the -2 STR idea, you could make them actually small creatures. You'd have to tack on some more features though.
Good, but I could see them being 20 feet if you want to add another feature or keep one I want to cut. I wouldn't give them the dwarf heavy armor thing though. They are already geared toward heavy armor with the -2 DEX thing. Actually I'd only go to 20ft move if you go for -2 STR.
I've noticed this in all your races, haven't I? Low-light is very useful. I wouldn't be giving it out so easily. Yes the forest lurkers can justify it, but is it necessary for balance?
Totally out there. +2! No standard race has +2 to AC across the board. Halflings get effectively that via to different mechanics, but giving out +2 is too much. Even +1 offsets much of the DEX penalty for some people, and if you descide to go heavy armor (and who wouldn't) this natural armor is free. +1 Natural armor at most.
I don't like this anymore than other people. Giving out 4th level spells at will isn't something for a +O LA race. I'd say they can communicate with plants for one round per level. Maybe add this full ability in at the end of a racial paragon class. Or how about Plant Empathy that works like Wild Empathy but with plants instead.
This is okay. I wish there were a [Plant] descriptor so this could be clearer. So if a Sylvani wizard fireballs a person next to a tree, does the fireball deal extra damage to the tree, to the person, or both?
You might need to cut this for mechanical reasons. Instead how about plants suffer -1 on saves versus spells cast by Sylvani?
I like the Knowledge (nature) because it is INT based and stacks with the druidic ability making Druid Sylvani very knowledgable. But Sense Motive? First it is WIS based, so Sylvani really get +3 because of extra wisdom. Second, I don't see it, not at all. Survival makes more sense, but it is another WIS skill that is going to be in class. They don't need +3 on Survival. Are Sylvani supposed to be the best trackers in the land.
You seem to like giving out skill bonuses, so how about keeping the +2 to Knowledge Nature, and giving them some kind of forest sense like the dwarf's stonesence - The Sylvani can use search to detect traps in the forest as a rogue.
I don't mind this. +4 is a lot, but less than a halfling gets. If you make them small, the bonus should only be +2. Maybe add to move silently too if you drop the WIS skills from above.
Maybe add +4 to disguise skills when trying to look like normal foliage, or maybe not?
Of course, but you might consider going with a class that doesn't get so much for the bonus wisdom: ranger. They are woodsy would work just as well, but would give the humans and half-elves something reason to go druid.
In summary, my version would be
+2 WIS, -2 STR
Medium Size
Speak with plants for up to one round per level per day
Sylvani get +1 on DCs of their spells against plants
+1 Natural Armor
+2 Knowledge (Nature)
+2 hide and move silently in a forest
Forest sense - can search for forest traps as a rogue
I think with the natural armor this would be a very popular race.
Merlion
First Post
Ok first right off the bat i want to say I really apreciate your feedback, its polite, and detailed, and you actualy give extensive reasons for your opnions. However, I do disagree on numerous points, but i dont want you to take my responses negatively, because they are not meant so.
and so I move last to the race that was first...and has proved must problematic.
As I've mentioned in the other threads, they get a Dex penalty because to me Dex is the oposite of Wisdom, and I feel that it is a balanced trade and am unlikely to change it.
I wouldnt really mind a 20 ft speed for them, as it fits in with the idea that their body structure is not as high in the mobility deparment as most.
Again its something every non-human race (except halflings, which it could be argued are little more than mini-humans) gets, so I dont see any reason not to have them have it.
Well, if I give them +1 NA, then it and the Dex penalty AC component just cancel them out, and the NA becomes pretty much meaningless. Its either +2, or replace the NA with another defense bonus or bonuses that reflect their woody nature.
I really, really dont understand how this is so powerful. its a 3rd/4th level spell, but as we all know all spells of a given level arent entirely equal. if I gave them unlimited Barskin or Dispel Magic or something I could see it, but this?
Your last suggestion doesnt really work because other than plant creatures, plants are considered objects and cannot be communicated with.
If I was to change it it would be something like this: The can concentrate for say a round, up to 3 times a day, and after concentrating they can communicate with plants for say 10 minutes. Something like that. The ability is integral to their nature, and limiting it to much makes it something else. the ability isnt really even supposed to be supernatural in nature...its just part of their oneness with plants.
That seems pretty obvious to me. I dont like to put what I call "idiot warnings" into my work..at least not untill the last draft. Although your right that their should be some sort of Plant descriptor. In the final draft I will list the spells it affects.
the Sense Motive is just another way of representing their perceptive nature. i want them to be the extremely hard to fool aware of deceptions types.
Survival, as you say is pretty logical given their nature.
Hmmm...some sort of "forest sense" is rather intriguing...
I dont really care about favored class as such because I find the whole mechanic of multiclassing XP penalty/facored class silly and stupid. However, no other class really makes as much sense for them as druid.
Humans and Half Elves already have plenty of reason to go druid...the fact that there are players who want to play human or half elven druids.
I may decide to revise/replace the speak with plants and NA. will fix the Plant Affinity so the idiots can understand it. See no reason to change the skill bonuses. Forest Sense sounds interesting..
and so I move last to the race that was first...and has proved must problematic.
As I've mentioned in the other threads, they get a Dex penalty because to me Dex is the oposite of Wisdom, and I feel that it is a balanced trade and am unlikely to change it.
I wouldnt really mind a 20 ft speed for them, as it fits in with the idea that their body structure is not as high in the mobility deparment as most.
Again its something every non-human race (except halflings, which it could be argued are little more than mini-humans) gets, so I dont see any reason not to have them have it.
Well, if I give them +1 NA, then it and the Dex penalty AC component just cancel them out, and the NA becomes pretty much meaningless. Its either +2, or replace the NA with another defense bonus or bonuses that reflect their woody nature.
I really, really dont understand how this is so powerful. its a 3rd/4th level spell, but as we all know all spells of a given level arent entirely equal. if I gave them unlimited Barskin or Dispel Magic or something I could see it, but this?
Your last suggestion doesnt really work because other than plant creatures, plants are considered objects and cannot be communicated with.
If I was to change it it would be something like this: The can concentrate for say a round, up to 3 times a day, and after concentrating they can communicate with plants for say 10 minutes. Something like that. The ability is integral to their nature, and limiting it to much makes it something else. the ability isnt really even supposed to be supernatural in nature...its just part of their oneness with plants.
That seems pretty obvious to me. I dont like to put what I call "idiot warnings" into my work..at least not untill the last draft. Although your right that their should be some sort of Plant descriptor. In the final draft I will list the spells it affects.
the Sense Motive is just another way of representing their perceptive nature. i want them to be the extremely hard to fool aware of deceptions types.
Survival, as you say is pretty logical given their nature.
Hmmm...some sort of "forest sense" is rather intriguing...
I dont really care about favored class as such because I find the whole mechanic of multiclassing XP penalty/facored class silly and stupid. However, no other class really makes as much sense for them as druid.
Humans and Half Elves already have plenty of reason to go druid...the fact that there are players who want to play human or half elven druids.
I may decide to revise/replace the speak with plants and NA. will fix the Plant Affinity so the idiots can understand it. See no reason to change the skill bonuses. Forest Sense sounds interesting..
Merlion
First Post
Ok I removed the natural armor and replaced it with some save bonuses...I'm not really entirely happy with it though because the last 2 especialy arent going to come into play much..and most Sylvani are going to take classes with good fort saves and or immunity to poisons, but we'll see
I toned down Speak with Plants, and added Forest Sense. They've become sort of like forest dwarves
I toned down Speak with Plants, and added Forest Sense. They've become sort of like forest dwarves
Graywolf-ELM
Explorer
Graywolf-ELM said:
Looks like it was the ADU'JAS from Dragon issue #317 page 22.
Merlion said:
You're welcome. I'm just offering an alternative viewpoint: how I would implement this in my campaign. Ultimately the balance is up to you. It is not like you can make me use your version in my campaign.
BTW, I play in a group that includes one all out power-gamer and a few near-power-gamers and is very light in the pure role-player type. Myself, I'm a near-power-gamer: I dislike having to play a vastly inferior combination for role-playing purposes, so I usually play something fun and decently powered.
I've only skimmed your recent changes, so take that for what it is worth.
I don't see Dex-Wis as opposites at all. In fact, the existance of the monk kind of disproves that. But in any event, a -DEX +WIS race can work and fits the flavor of your plant-like beings.
The Sylvani with the natural armor bonus are quite strong as full-plate fighters and even stronger as full-plate paladins or clerics. You have subsequently removed the natural armor, but that leaves paladins marginal, but really does nothing to deal with the cleric issue. Ever power-gamer will take Sylvani for cleric unless they want to be an archer. +2 WIS is that powerful. So I would think seriously about 20ft speed and maybe adding back in the natural armor to offset the speed.
Elves and half-elves get low-light, as do gnomes. That is two (or two-and-a-half) races. Two races get darkvision, and two get normal vision. I don't see an overall pattern.
In any case, you have to decide if you are adding abilities because they fit the race or to power up the race. This race with the natural armor doesn't need powering up, so I would skip the out of place abilities.
The NA is not there to compensate for the Dex penalty. The DEX penalty is supposed to compensate for the WIS bonus. The NA should be there because it fits the race, because it is unique to standard races, and as a moderate benefit to the race. +1 NA stacks with full-plate. A Sylvani with 12 dex (not hard) in full-plate and shield and this race would be AC 22 if you go with +1NA. That is more than any other standard race. +2 NA is not needed.
It depends on the campaign. If you fight a lot of battles, Barkskin at will or Dispel Magic at will could be very powerful. If I played in a campaign with no spellcasters, Dispel Magic might be nearly useless. Overall we have to look at the spell level of the effect. The 3E designers put it at 3rd/4th, so that is a good starting place. After seeing speak with plants in action in many investigations, I think it could even be higher because plants are everywhere. The power also depend on how the DM plays it. If he plays plants as totally nearsighted and complete idiots (happened in one campaign), you might as well be not be using the spell at all.
Personally, I would not include any speak with plants ability beyond 1 round/level, or maybe just flat out 1 minute. That will be dang powerful though. On the other hand it would make a Sylvanni fighter cooler because he could do something outside combat.
It wasn't obvious to me at all. I thought you meant fireballing plants worked better for Sylvanni. Actually, I'm still not sure. I can't remember your recent changes.
I like the favored class thing for flavor and to prevent rapid, munchkin multiclassing. But I use a slightly modified version of it. That said, I think ranger would work for Sylvani.
Until now, human and half-elf druid players did not have the Sylvani to choose from. I think many (or most) would have chosen Sylvani.
Either you are concerned with the balance of your new race or you are not. If you are concerned, you might want to consider outside of role-playing considerations why would players of a certain class want to be anything other than a certain race. This will help with the balance. If the answer is simply, because players want to play that race, the race may be unbalanced.
On the other hand, if your players will play what the want and forget about balance, any set of abilities would work for your race.
Good luck.
Merlion
First Post
Yea I kind of like that idea
I do. a see a pattern of virtualy every non human race having some sort of enhanced night vision. This is continued with most likely race-monsters in the MM, and various other sourcebooks.
I dont entirely agree. Spell level is obviously a big factor, but the specfics of the spell are very important as well. Perhaps a better example would be, a spell like ability of say, Mordenkainen's Secret Chest, isnt going to be as useful as a spell like ability of Teleport, Prying Eyes, or Cone of Cold.
the spell descrption itself makes it clear that plants only have a limited knowledge/understanding of their surroundings, and that they arent neccsarily automaticaly going to do what you want anyway
well to me it seems like a logical progression. Their a plant like race, with a connection to plantlife, why would that make them better at destroying it? But i guess I will have to do a list or something.
It would, but given their personality, druid works better
I am concerned with balance, but to me, this issue has nothing to do with balance. If the race is not problematicaly more powerful than other races, I consider it balanced. Their are already plenty of races that are notably better for some classes than for others, for both mechanical and roleplaying reasons. Elves and Halflings make darn good rogues. Half Orcs make really good fighters or barbarians. Dwarves also make excellent melee characters of any kind.
And I still despute that this race would automaticaly be "the best" for a Druid, especialy when compared to the Elf.
So, how about the prestige class? and the other two races?
I looked over your recent changes, and I like the race a lot. The only change I'd suggest is to change the "one round of concentration" thing for speak with plants into simply the spell-like ability to speak with plants. One round of concentration isn't much different than using a spell-like ability, so you might as well use an existing system for it.
I was thinking more along the lines of "your spells are more effective against plants" than "you destroy plants better." You have clarified it now to mean "you are better at casting spells that specifically work on plants." For my campaign, I might be tempted to go with a simpler rule like plants suffering a -1 on saves versus Sylvanni spells, but that isn't a big deal.
I agree now. I think with the lastest changes it is an interesting choice. Druids and clerics want more wisdom because it means more spells and better spells (higher DCs). But they have to give up DEX for it, which is not a big deal for high-armor clerics and shape shifting druids, but they also give up movement speed. Some characters will want to remain mobile or be archers or something.
And this race is not a one-trick pony. Sylvanni fighters are interesting, and even a sylvani sorcerer might be worth it.
I would use this race in a campaign, but I don't allow the natural spell feat as written. The problem would be once you gain natural spell you can ignore the DEX and movement penalties because you will always be in animal form (at least the druids I've seen in campaigns with natural spell as written always stay in bird form and blast from high, or stay in bear form and melee).
I'm not big on prestige classes -- I don't use them in my campain -- so I haven't had a look. I'm not sure I would be the best at telling you if they are balance. I would be more interested in a racial paragon class. My next campaign will definitely include those.
As for the other two races, when I have the time I'll take another look.
Good job.
I was thinking more along the lines of "your spells are more effective against plants" than "you destroy plants better." You have clarified it now to mean "you are better at casting spells that specifically work on plants." For my campaign, I might be tempted to go with a simpler rule like plants suffering a -1 on saves versus Sylvanni spells, but that isn't a big deal.
I agree now. I think with the lastest changes it is an interesting choice. Druids and clerics want more wisdom because it means more spells and better spells (higher DCs). But they have to give up DEX for it, which is not a big deal for high-armor clerics and shape shifting druids, but they also give up movement speed. Some characters will want to remain mobile or be archers or something.
And this race is not a one-trick pony. Sylvanni fighters are interesting, and even a sylvani sorcerer might be worth it.
I would use this race in a campaign, but I don't allow the natural spell feat as written. The problem would be once you gain natural spell you can ignore the DEX and movement penalties because you will always be in animal form (at least the druids I've seen in campaigns with natural spell as written always stay in bird form and blast from high, or stay in bear form and melee).
I'm not big on prestige classes -- I don't use them in my campain -- so I haven't had a look. I'm not sure I would be the best at telling you if they are balance. I would be more interested in a racial paragon class. My next campaign will definitely include those.
As for the other two races, when I have the time I'll take another look.
Good job.
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