New review critical of DUNE: PART TWO based on the depiction of Chani

Okay, I have to put down my marker here.

I loathe Tom Bombadil. Now, before you're all like, "That's just Snarf, a-hatin' on the Bards as usual," it's not just that.

First, I agree with you that it is impossible to like any screen depiction of TB (is it a coincidence or destiny that he can be summarized the same way as tuberculosis ... I'll let you decide). The best decision Peter Jackson ever made was to remove TB from the films. When TB does show up (cough cough Rings of Power) it is always a painful watch. It's like Tolkien has a DM NPC, but with extra suckage.

But as someone who loves the books, I also never got the fan-love for TB on the written page either. I feel like some Tolkien fans are "TB is like Boba Fett in Empire Strikes Back, all cool and mysterious!" and I just see him as Boba Fett in Return of the Jedi, if you catch my drift.

So yeah. I hate TB.

I DO NOT LIKE TOM IN A HOUSE.
I DO NOT LIKE TOM WITH A MOUSE.
I DO NOT LIKE TOM HERE OR THERE.
I DO NOT LIKE TOM ANYWHERE.
I DO NOT LIKE TOM BOMBADIL.
I DO NOT LIKE TOM, AND NEVER WILL.
I think Bombadil is kind of a goofy character. And I think he is unnecessary for the plot.

But I still like that he's in the book. And I like him because he is unnecessary for the plot. He is one of many elements that Tolkien includes who are there not to advance the story, but flesh out Middle Earth as setting that goes beyond the exigencies of plot. In TTRPG terms, he makes it feel like more of a sandbox and less of a railroad. He reminds the reader that the history of Middle Earth is bigger than the war with Sauron.

So I see Bombadil as a character that violates most of the norms of good writing, but then, Tolkien does that in quite a few other ways, too. I think he is a uniquely Tolkien inclusion, and I think he is an important reason that no one else feels like Tolkien, despite the many, many efforts to emulate him.

As a critic, I find myself almost at a loss in assessing Tolkien. His writing is often expository, his dialogue frequently fails to come across like actual people talking, he includes unnecessary plot elements and characters, his prose is like weird combination of the King James, Beowulf and, I dunno, Tennyson? By most of my usual measure he should be bad, but he's not. It all just works.

For me.

Herbert, not so much. I think only the first book is any good at all, and even then it has some super icky themes and ridiculously unbelievable characters. Basic fantasy plot, with very well executed battles. Cool setting, though, for sure.
 

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Anyways, Dune.

I have to say I liked Part II better after I watched it a second time at home with subtitles on so I could catch more dialog.

I think both films do an excellent job portraying the book. Sure, I missed not having the dinner scene, or the lack of intrigue around the spacing guild, but get why they were cut.

I remain hopeful that Part III will cap an excellent trilogy. However, to do so, I think it would be wise to actually stray from the books at that point. I much rather see a movie about Paul's assentation (and all the grief that causes - making it rather dark, I know), than just glossing over it and focusing on the intrigue after the new empire is established.
 

I remain hopeful that Part III will cap an excellent trilogy. However, to do so, I think it would be wise to actually stray from the books at that point. I much rather see a movie about Paul's assentation (and all the grief that causes - making it rather dark, I know), than just glossing over it and focusing on the intrigue after the new empire is established.
I was wondering whether Part III will just be Messiah, or incorporate Children as well - especially with how II ended and Chani leaving Paul, could leave room for Paul to become the God Emperor instead of Leto.
 

I was wondering whether Part III will just be Messiah, or incorporate Children as well - especially with how II ended and Chani leaving Paul, could leave room for Paul to become the God Emperor instead of Leto.

That could be a fun twist and actually bring an end to the movie trilogy in a more conclusive manner than basing it off the end of Messiah.
 

I think Bombadil is kind of a goofy character. And I think he is unnecessary for the plot.

But I still like that he's in the book. And I like him because he is unnecessary for the plot. He is one of many elements that Tolkien includes who are there not to advance the story, but flesh out Middle Earth as setting that goes beyond the exigencies of plot. In TTRPG terms, he makes it feel like more of a sandbox and less of a railroad. He reminds the reader that the history of Middle Earth is bigger than the war with Sauron.

So I see Bombadil as a character that violates most of the norms of good writing, but then, Tolkien does that in quite a few other ways, too. I think he is a uniquely Tolkien inclusion, and I think he is an important reason that no one else feels like Tolkien, despite the many, many efforts to emulate him.

As a critic, I find myself almost at a loss in assessing Tolkien. His writing is often expository, his dialogue frequently fails to come across like actual people talking, he includes unnecessary plot elements and characters, his prose is like weird combination of the King James, Beowulf and, I dunno, Tennyson? By most of my usual measure he should be bad, but he's not. It all just works.

For me.

Herbert, not so much. I think only the first book is any good at all, and even then it has some super icky themes and ridiculously unbelievable characters. Basic fantasy plot, with very well executed battles. Cool setting, though, for sure.

Bombadil (and other elements) reminds us of who the actual audience of the book was. The Hobbit, and it's ensuing sequels (the Lord of the Rings) were written for children...or more specifically...Tolkien's Children. It's not supposed to be heavy, it's not supposed to be full of adult ideas (those things that make movies rated 18). They both have elements of fairytales and fairy within them. They are more Harry Potter than Game of Thrones.

They can be dark and scary (much like Doctor Who can be scary...but just enough to scare the kids, not to send them screaming into madness and convulsions...at least generally), as well as violent, but not so violent as to be explicit.

The Silmarillion and other writings were his adult stuff, or his more adult stuff. That was (if I understand correctly) what he really wanted to get published (though I also understand he kept changing and rearranging it as he went along), but the public just wanted more hobbits.

As the books dealing with Hobbits (those little munchkins), and written for his kids, you have such things as a dinner party with an unexpected bunch of dwarves, the humor of how relatives are and how you have to put up with them, the setting up a birthday party, and many other things, one of which is, of course, Tom Bombadil.

This more kid friendly and fairy tale look is where you get things like Hobbits spending time with the Ents, and after horrific experiences with being captured by orcs having almost no PTSD and instead being able to smoke Pipe weed and greet your delayed friends into a flooded siege of a wizard, or how everytime it's the eagles which come to the rescue.

The darkest of the books is probably the Return of the King, showing that darkness leaves it's mark and you still have that fairy tale ending of the Woodsman becoming a King and marrying the Princess and the ones most scarred (the ringbearers) getting to literally go across the ocean with the elves and live in literal middle earth heaven.

Tom Bombadil is just a reminder that this isn't a book written for us adult(such as Game of Thrones was in our modern times), and wasn't Tolkien's first choice to have published. It was written for his children.

If you want what his adult tastes would focus on read the other stuff (The Silmarillion or the newer novels that were printed posthumously), some of which still are relatively light, but there are some rather dark themes and ideas in there that are not really fairytale like.
 


New EN rule: All EN threads will eventually be derailed by Tolkien side discussions.
Honestly, I'd take that any day over the rest of the nerdosphere social media I partake in, where things always devolve into Star Trek-or-Wars grievance matches.
I remain hopeful that Part III will cap an excellent trilogy. However, to do so, I think it would be wise to actually stray from the books at that point. I much rather see a movie about Paul's assentation (and all the grief that causes - making it rather dark, I know), than just glossing over it and focusing on the intrigue after the new empire is established.
I was wondering whether Part III will just be Messiah, or incorporate Children as well - especially with how II ended and Chani leaving Paul, could leave room for Paul to become the God Emperor instead of Leto.
That could be a fun twist and actually bring an end to the movie trilogy in a more conclusive manner than basing it off the end of Messiah.
This is definitely the big issue for a Dune interpretation. If you don't end the series after the first book (and boy is that a plotline left hanging), do you go all the way through Children (and half to introduce a new main cast)?
 

New EN rule: All EN threads will eventually be derailed by Tolkien side discussions.

I'll add that to the list!

1. Ancalagon's Apothegm: If you ever write something about how awesome people are, they will immediately prove you wrong.

2. Gorice's Gospel: All conversations about TTRPG theory on enworld inevitably become arguments about the Forge.

3. The Soloist's Supposition: All EnWorld threads will eventually be derailed by Tolkien side discussions.
 

New EN rule: All EN threads will eventually be derailed by Tolkien side discussions.
3. The Soloist's Supposition: All EnWorld threads will eventually be derailed by Tolkien side discussions.

IMNSHO, not really applicable to this thread.

Although the title would lead you to believe the linked article is a review of Dune 2, it isn't. It's just a typical nerd rage blog post of "this thing that bugs me". It doesn't critique Dune 2 as a movie. It just talks about one extremely specific difference between the book and the movie, while also spending lots of time waxing about general things the author doesn’t approve of. More importantly, it discusses Tolkien (and Jackson, etc) directly. The article actually names more Tolkien characters than it does characters in Dune 2.

For Soloist's Supposition to be followed, it must have a corollary that the OP never mentions Tolkien (or related movies/media) in the thread. You can't derail a discussion that was never on the tracks.
 

It could have been 'Anakin-Padme-Senate-Jar-Jar-Binx' worst. ;)

We didn't see the same movie. Chani stifled her emotions for Paul, instead of following him down the Dictatorship-mass-murderer spiceroad. She affirmed her independence of thought. A very mature attitude. Chani is Villeneuve telling us Paul is NOT a hero. An efficient way to fix Herbert's avowed mistake with the first book.

The silly Hollywood imature romance cliché would have been for Chani to stay with him and think 'she can change him' before it's too late. That would have been revolting on many levels.

I reserve judgment about Villeneuve's Dune after I've watched the third movie. The sum effect could be greater than its parts.
I would have loved to have experienced the ending like you. I have seen the film a couple times and I am open to an argument that would substantiate your claim. My understanding of how Villeneuve depicted Chani is based on the close-ups that depict betrayal after Atreides proposes to the Emperor to marry his daughter. At that point, not before, she leaves the gathering and leaves. The film ends with a close-up of her face. It is hard to see Chani as the vehicle revealing Atreides as a political anti-messiah when it is overwhelmed with Villeneuve's depiction of romantic pique.
 

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