paradox42 said:Without going into any judgment on the class discussion that sparked this statement, I must break in here and vehemently disagree with you here UK.
paradox42 said:Even if this is the Internet, you should remember that your opinion is not fact!
paradox42 said:Prestige Classes have many purposes, and Phantom Llama's is a perfectly valid one for many people.
paradox42 said:Understand (and never forget) that your philosophy is not the One Correct Way to do things.
paradox42 said:I'll also point out that core classes need not be anything besides generic to make a fun game - d20 Modern has the most generic base classes imaginable, and it's a very well-designed and fun game (its silly opinions on the effects of high-damage weapons like nukes notwithstanding). Ultimately, it's all in how you work with the tools given to you as a player or gamemaster.
Phantom Llama said:Further to this: I actually like the idea of having illiteracy available as a mechanical option. But I think it should be available to everyone (drop reading and writing to get two extra skill points at first level) rather than a class feature. Of course characters like Wizards will have some explaining to do..
Phantom Llama said:I'd also like to apologise for coming off a bit terse in the above post.
Pssthpok said:I like how each of UK's class revisions seem to serve as soapboxes for other people who want to go and prove something 'wrong' about 'optional' material presented with no intention of replacing the standing mechanics.
Xzoltar said:Hi Upper Krust
Xzoltar said:I didnt like the Fighter variant the first time (now with the revision, I like it but not sure yet if it would replace the standard fighter in my games).
Xzoltar said:As for the Barbarian variant. I really like it, better progression for Damage Reduction and more Hit Points via Improved Toughness.
Xzoltar said:However, I dont really like the Roar ability, even if they made sense are we have seen that in lot of rpg (like WoW). It could be feat instead that require rage.
Xzoltar said:So I remove that ability and give a bonus feat every 5 levels.
Xzoltar said:Ancestral Spirits it also make lot of sense and in lot of culture we heard of warrior speaking or getting help form their ancestors,
Xzoltar said:however it really dosent seem to fit with the other Barbarian powers. So I will still keep that away and require either a feat, template, spell or prestige class to access to theses spirits.
Xzoltar said:And can you clarify, if I understand SAP at level 40 (like in your example) a barbarian can summon 1d4+1 lvl 20 (Average 285 hp) Barbarians or 10d4+10 lvl 10 Barbarians (Average 140 hp) that remain for 40 rounds. Every hour ? That's every encounter. Sure its Epic level play, but 50 Barbarians lvl 10 helping you is still a lot. They can all greater rage and fight or help you via Aid another option. Or its enough to conquer most town and lesser settle.
Xzoltar said:And can you add a clause in SAS that make the Barbarian you call cannot use their call ability. Just like with the summon ability of Demon/Devil/Angel.
Xzoltar said:I know you said to use the Barbarian NPC from DMG, but it dosent make sense since we are using your variant.
Xzoltar said:I dont understand why Hulsk gain size increase while raging, I dont see that reflect in is rage ability, magic items or feats, can you clarify if its from Virtual Size increase ?, thanks.
Being tactically one-dimensional and weak vs. the spellcasters is a valid concern, but that doesn't make any ability invented to fill the gap automatically a good idea.Upper_Krust said:I disagree, its tactically one-dimensional (Rage), underpowered against the cleric or wizard and the epic progression is boring.
It implies ancestor worship, or at least ancestor-honouring. It fits dodgily with many concepts that would otherwise be well expressed by the barbarian class, as I outlined before.I fail to see how 'summon ancestral spirits' determines your religion?
They are a good idea (That's fundamentally why the TOB was popular - not because it makes mêlée characters more powerful, but because it makes them more fun).I don't think its necessarily about offense as it is about proactive - that is, something you activate and it changes your tactics.
I didn't mention spellcasting anywhere in the first one. Their warriors are renowned for their unstoppable berzerker rages though. The second and third one being fighters means they don't get Rage or Roar, both important things for their concept (Howling dragoons, remember?). The fourth one doesn't fit Monk so well since a Monk is all about calm and self-control, whereas shounenry is about hot blood and BURNING JUSTICE. Barbarian is a much better mechanical fit - except for SAS (which I guess you could actually reflavour to some kind of duplication special move, but this is a fringe example anyway).The first sounds like a Druid or Ranger, the second and third sound like Fighters and the last sounds like a Monk.
Sometimes adding things takes things away. In this case, it's a very strongly themed ability that takes the class away from a wealth of concepts for which it would otherwise be a good match. It's a very unusual ability that just plain doesn't fit a lot of character concepts - even a lot of traditional barbarian ones that happen not to include overtly supernatural powers.I thought I was adding rather than taking things away.
You can't make that generalism about the Barbarian either - it's perfectly possible for a barbarian tribe to have a written tradition. But this is a minor point.I don't think you can make the same generalism about the above's education (I presume you're implying Rogue and Fighter) as you can the Barbarian.
They're temporarily resurrecting them - bringing them back to the material plane to fight again. It feels much more esoteric than just getting fast instead of strong.They are not resurrecting anything, simply summoning the dead.
Indeed, I also like how his revisions are provoking debate and discussion on power levels and design philosophy, which can only lead to stronger design from all parties in the future.Pssthpok said:I like how each of UK's class revisions seem to serve as soapboxes for other people who want to go and prove something 'wrong' about 'optional' material presented with no intention of replacing the standing mechanics.
Phantom Llama said:Being tactically one-dimensional and weak vs. the spellcasters is a valid concern, but that doesn't make any ability invented to fill the gap automatically a good idea.
Phantom Llama said:Also, you still have Roar, so it's tactically two-dimensional at the least.
Phantom Llama said:It implies ancestor worship, or at least ancestor-honouring. It fits dodgily with many concepts that would otherwise be well expressed by the barbarian class, as I outlined before.
Phantom Llama said:They are a good idea (That's fundamentally why the TOB was popular - not because it makes mêlée characters more powerful, but because it makes them more fun).
Phantom Llama said:Here's a possibility: A 'burst of effort' ability, that lets you expend a Rage/day usage to perform an incredible feat beyond your normal abilities, like shrug off a spell or leap a great distance or smash down a wall (or door). Essentially similar to rage, but more focused. It might desire more uses of rage/day though.
Phantom Llama said:I didn't mention spellcasting anywhere in the first one. Their warriors are renowned for their unstoppable berzerker rages though.
Phantom Llama said:The second and third one being fighters means they don't get Rage or Roar, both important things for their concept (Howling dragoons, remember?). The fourth one doesn't fit Monk so well since a Monk is all about calm and self-control, whereas shounenry is about hot blood and BURNING JUSTICE. Barbarian is a much better mechanical fit - except for SAS (which I guess you could actually reflavour to some kind of duplication special move, but this is a fringe example anyway).
Sometimes adding things takes things away. In this case, it's a very strongly themed ability that takes the class away from a wealth of concepts for which it would otherwise be a good match. It's a very unusual ability that just plain doesn't fit a lot of character concepts - even a lot of traditional barbarian ones that happen not to include overtly supernatural powers.
Phantom Llama said:Putting it into a prestige class means that everyone who wants a more mundane barbarian can have one, and everyone who thinks it's a cool ability that they would want to have (which includes myself, I might add) can have it. Everyone wins.
Phantom Llama said:You can't make that generalism about the Barbarian either - it's perfectly possible for a barbarian tribe to have a written tradition. But this is a minor point.
Phantom Llama said:They're temporarily resurrecting them - bringing them back to the material plane to fight again. It feels much more esoteric than just getting fast instead of strong.
Phantom Llama said:Indeed, I also like how his revisions are provoking debate and discussion on power levels and design philosophy, which can only lead to stronger design from all parties in the future.
Phantom Llama said:I'm looking forwards to the Paladin revision - I've never been happy with the PHB version.
So.... they can't scream loud enough to deafen somebody until after 20th, but.... they can bring back the souls of the dead from their eternal rest at 10th? Please tell me I'm not the only one to see the contradiction here.Upper_Krust said:I initially had Deafening Roar at 15th, but I didn't want any supernatural roaring until epic levels.