new skill: fencing?

Eolin

Explorer
I was thrashing this out with my possible new DM (yes, a D&D game. I'm all excited.) and wasn't certain if it was balanced or even makes sense. I may limit to the rapier, but that seems to limiting.

dex based, this skill is designed to allow for the sort of fencing seen quite often in movies and whatnot, where neither you nor your opponent hits very often, but its oh so very stylish.

While not allowing a bonus to your to-hit (as that'd be crazy powerful, imho), the fencing skill can act as a replacement to the user's AC in certain circumstances. Those circumstances, fairly obviously, are when fencing. This includes anytime you are fighting someone in a melee fight using your sword and wish to deflect oncoming blows. This does not work against any spells that are ray or otherwise must beat your AC.

Perhaps the exception to that should be touch spells, you use an action to deflect the upcoming touch?

In order to have this be balanced, I'm thinking it should be cross-class for everyone. What the DM calls "exotic" ...

So, I'm wondering if this at all fits popular conception of what such a skill would do, and if anyone already has something similiar that might work, and thirdly, if the mechanics for real fencing are anything similiar.


edit: I sound like a 12 year old powergamer. I assure you I'm not.
 
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It sounds like you want to improve defense at the cost of offense when fencing? There are already a couple of ways to do that in the rules:
- Fighting defensively (not too good, but everyone has the option)
- Combat Expertise feat
- Canny Defense (Duelist ability, I may have gotten the name wrong)
- ... there are probably more that I don't remember

Also, several sets of house rules for parry/deflect/riposte-ing have been proposed.

Imo, it would be a bad idea to introduce a skill for it.
 

Eolin said:
I was thrashing this out with my possible new DM (yes, a D&D game. I'm all excited.) and wasn't certain if it was balanced or even makes sense. I may limit to the rapier, but that seems to limiting.

It doesn't really make sense with the way the rules are set-up. If a skill was a combat element, it'd be a fairly universal thing; skills should be for bits not covered by other parts of the system.

For dueling (which is really what you're talking about) I have "combat style" feats (replace the shield proficincey for all classes; "sword and board" is a fighting style), and one of which is "Dueling."

When someone with this feat engages in a combat, they may "duel" one opponent as a full round action. Both members of a duel roll opposed attack rolls when either one makes an attack--including attacks to other characters.

Armor check penalties apply to all "defender" rolls, and someone engaged in a duel who doesn't have the fighting style should have a -2 penalty to their defensive rolls.

(This works a bit better with AASB's engagement-based combat model, but it should work just fine with D&D's map-based model.)
 

I know this is kind of drastic, but if you really want long, deadlocked battles with few hits and skill based attacks, you might consider GURPS. I know changing game systems is a bit drastic, but your fencing skill resembles many of the skills in GURPS. Just a thought. If you are interested in GURPS look at www.sjgames.com If you look in the GURPS section you can get the GURPS LITE rules for free, and see if thats more of the fencing style your shooting for.
 

Seems to me that what goes on in fencing is basically Fighting Defensively, and occasionally taking an aggressive lunge. When a fencer lunges, he thrusts forward to make the strike at the risk of leaving his defenses open.

Unless I'm smoking too much crack, there isn't a rule to replicate the lunge. But the rules allow feints, disarms and defensive fighting.

I think you could cobble together a pretty good fencer from:

Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Expertise
Improved Disarm
Improved Feint (3.5)
Weapon Finesse

And, if you wanted to go rapier and dagger:

Ambidexterity
Two-weapon Fighting
Off Hand Defense (Sword & Fist, page 7)
 

Extract from the anime d20 SRD, it something close to what you tried.

http://www.guardiansorder.com/d20/animed20_srd/

Combat Skills

Unlike most other d20 System games, Anime d20 uses combat Skills in addition to combat Feats. Offensive combat Skills are treated exactly like Skills for any other action — they serve as a bonus to a character’s dice roll. Defensive combat Skills are applied to the character’s defence roll when defending in an appropriate situation.

For example, a character with Defence Combat Mastery at Rank 2, a Dexterity of 11, and Melee Defence (Sword) at Rank 3 is wielding a sword and attacked by an opponent in melee combat. His Armour Class is normally 2 (+0 Dex modifier and +2 from the Defence Combat Mastery). When defending with his sword, he gains a +4 bonus to his defence roll (+3 for the Melee Defence Skill Rank, and +1 for the Sword Specialisation), but only against melee or unarmed attacks. If another character attacks him with a gun, thus initiating a ranged combat attack, he makes a defence roll without a bonus since he does not have the Ranged Defence Skill.

The following outlines the rules for using Skills in Anime d20. See the PHB for the rules for acquiring Skill Ranks.

Skill Points and Skill Ranks

Characters have a number of Skill Points based on their class Levels, as outlined in the class descriptions. Depending on a character’s class, some Skills are “class Skills” and some Skills are “cross-class Skills.” For non-combat Skills, cross-class Skills require 2 Skill Points per Rank while class Skills require 1 Skill Point per Rank. For combat Skills, the cost is tripled to 6 and 3 Skill Points, respectively.

If the GM desires, the maximum number of Ranks a character can have in a class Skill is equal to that character’s Rank +3 (a common limit in many d20 System games). The maximum Rank a character can have in a cross-class Skill is half that number (round down). Optionally, the GM can add the Skill’s relevant Ability Score modifier to this maximum Skill Rank for the character. Of course, the Game Master can also ignore these limitations (and possibly develop his or her own Skill Rank maximums).

Using Skills

When a character uses a Skill, the character makes a Skill check to see how well the character performs the action. The higher the result on the character’s Skill check, the more successful the attempt. Based on the circumstances, the character’s result must match or exceed a particular number (called a DC, or Difficulty Class) to use the Skill successfully. The harder the task, the higher the number the character needs to roll.

Skill Description Format

Relevant Ability

This is the Ability modifier that most often applies to the Skill check. If two (or more) Abilities are listed, it indicates that different Abilities may be relevant, depending on the situation. The GM should select the one most appropriate to the circumstances. For example, the Pilot Skill has the Relevant Ability: Intelligence or Dexterity. When a character attempts to pilot a large cruise ship, the GM should require a Skill check using the Intelligence modifier — the character’s knowledge of the boat’s controls are more important when driving such a massive ship. When the character hops into a small ski boat, however, his or her Dexterity is more important and thus the GM should require a Skill check using the Dexterity modifier instead of the Intelligence Modifier.

Specialisations (Optional Rule)

A selection of Specialisations is provided. When a character gains a new Skill, he or she may select one Specialisation for free. Any time the character makes a Skill check (a character attempting to balance on a thin ledge using Acrobatics: Balance, for example), the character gains a +1 bonus to his or her Skill check. With GM permission, players may select a Specialisation that is not listed if it fits with their character concept. Also, GMs may allow characters to gain two additional Specialisations for a particular Skill by paying the normal cost associated with gaining a Rank in that Skill.

Description

The Skill name line is followed by a general description of what using the Skill represents.

Combat Feats and Anime d20

To provide more player options and better reflect common elements in anime shows, Anime d20 replaces several combat Feats with combat Skills. The three weapon proficiency Feats (Exotic, Martial, and Simple) have been eliminated, indicating that all characters are proficient with all weapons, and thus do not suffer the -4 attack penalty. Additionally, the Weapon Focus Feat (which gives a +1 with a specific weapon) has been removed in favour of combat Skills that can provide much greater attack bonuses. As a result, Anime d20 characters who specialise in combat prowess by assigning many combat Skills can become much more deadly in battle than standard d20 characters.
If you prefer to use combat Feats from the standard d20 System instead, simply remove the combat Skills option from Anime d20 and make the appropriate Feats available to characters once again.


Archery
Relevant Ability: None (Offensive Combat Skill)
Specialisations: Bow, Crossbow
The ability to accurately shoot with a bow or crossbow.

Gun Combat
Relevant Ability: None (Offensive Combat Skill)
Specialisations: Auto-fire, Pistol, Rifle
The ability to accurately shoot with a hand-held firearm and to keep it properly maintained. Auto-fire applies to firing bursts of fully automatic fire from any gun, whether it is a small submachine gun, a big assault rifle, or a heavy machine gun. Pistol applies to firing single shots from a handgun. Rifle covers firing single shots from guns with a shoulder stock including rifles and shotguns.

Heavy Weapons
Relevant Ability: None (Offensive Combat Skill)
Specialisations: Artillery (indirect fire weapons such as Howitzers), Gunnery (heavy machine guns, tank guns and other vehicle-mounted direct-fire weapons), Launchers (rocket and missile launchers)
The ability to accurately fire vehicle-, shoulder-, or tripod-mounted weapons such as a tank cannon or heavy machine gun, and to perform routine maintenance.

Melee Attack
Relevant Ability: None (Offensive Combat Skill)
Specialisations: Axe, Baton/Club, Knife, Improvised Weapons (chairs, lamps, ladders, etc.), Polearms (spears, naginata, etc.), Shield, Sword, Whips/Chains
The ability to attack effectively with a hand-to-hand melee weapon.

Melee Defence
Relevant Ability: None (Defensive Combat Skill)
Specialisations: Axe, Baton/Club, Knife, Improvised Weapons, Polearms (spears, naginata, etc.), Shield, Sword, Whips/Chains
The ability to defend well with a hand-to-hand melee weapon.

Ranged Defence
Relevant Ability: None (Defensive Combat Skill)
Specialisations: Personal, Air Vehicle, Ground Vehicle, Water Vehicle, Space Vehicle
The ability to avoid ranged attacks, but this does not enable a character to actually dodge bullets. Rather, it is a combination of situational awareness and tactical movement as well as knowing when to keep moving (to present a more difficult target) and when to drop for cover.

Special Ranged Attack
Relevant Ability: None (Offensive Combat Skill)
Specialisations: One specific Special Attack
This Skill is used for weapons created using the Special Attack Attribute that emanate from the character’s body, rather than a device or weapon. For example, eye beams, fireballs fired from the hand, or sonic blast shot from the mouth would qualify for this Skill use, but a laser gun (Gun Combat Skill) or a deadly boomerang (Thrown Weapon Skill) would not.

Thrown Weapons
Relevant Ability: None (Offensive Combat Skill)
Specialisations: Blades, Cards, Grenades, Rocks, Shields
The ability to accurately throw weapons or objects at a target.

Unarmed Attack
Relevant Ability: None (Offensive Combat Skill)
Specialisations: Strikes, Holds, Throws, Grappling
The ability to attack without weapons.

Unarmed Defence
Relevant Ability: None (Defensive Combat Skill)
Specialisations: Strikes, Holds, Throws, Grappling
The ability to block armed or unarmed melee attacks without using a weapon.
 

That's real close to the flavor i was hoping for, blacksad.

The reason i wanted to do skill and not feats pretty simple, really ... I'm hoping to have this skill for a sorcerer. So feats are precious, but I've got an extra point/level that I'm not sure what to spend it on. Besides, it has the feel of a skill, imho.

Do those combat skills complately replace BAB, or is it in addition to?

It seems like what i want is really something like the melee defense skill, that'd work nicely.
 

err, I don't know :D

This is an extract from the anime d20 SRD, the reference document for BESM d20

I think that it goes along Bab, but I'm not sure, I'm waiting the book at my FLGS to delve into that a bit more seriously :p

Though, in the d20 system forum, you can find link to PDF version of the SRD in BESM d20 thread, if you wish to take just some portion.
 

I think this is a terrible mistake.

It lets a non-combat character (your sorcerer) basically get freebie AC bonuses. First off, if you want your sorcerer to be better at fighting, there are tons of feats for it already. Secondly, where's the balancing factor? You're making a skill that everyone ought to take. Any time everyone ought to take something, it's prolly broken.

I understand your point that feats are precious- they're supposed to be! 3e (and 3.5) is about choices. No character can have it all; you choose to give stuff up to get other stuff. Making a duelling skill sounds like a good way to get around this.

If I was playing a 5th-level fighter with combat expertise and some sorcerer came along who was virtually as good as I was at protecting himself without using magic, I'd be miffed. Likewise if I was playing a sorcerer and this other guy's sorcerer basically can't be hit because of his mad skillz.
 

The BESM d20 skill cost 6 skill point per rank as a cross class skill, and has a maximum rank as a cross-class skill of (level+3)/2

It doesn't seems overpowered, except if you are playing in a kick in the door game, plus the melee defence skill require a weapon in hand, which require a move action to draw, or which will impair spellcasting if you do not let it fall on the ground.
 

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