D&D 5E New Spellcasting Blocks for Monsters --- Why?!

[theCourier]

Feel like a lot of people would be happy coming over to the OSR rather than desperately trying to keep a system that's evolving to the needs of its new, larger customer base from doing that.

 

[Charlaquin]

You're completely right, it'd be sick if Vecna had his own spells and what not.

The reason I don't bring up this criticism is because WotC has abused me into acceptance. I know that WotC will literally only design 50 percent of what they need to make a concept work. In theory, Vecna could have a suite of 12 completely original spells and his multiattack is just using 3-4 spells freely per turn. Or you could give them variant versions of common spells, like a Chain Lightning that marks you with some kind of blight, or a cone of cold that lowers your maximum hit points. But, WotC won't do this. They refuse to do this. And even after 10 years of complaining, they still refuse to do this.

At this point, I'm just trying to make the best of what I'm given.

The sad thing is, they DID do this. In 4e. But the backlash was so bad, they’re still too nervous to fully commit to doing it again.

 

[Parmandur]

Wouldn’t it have been nice if, when they fixed basically all the problems with the old spellcasting system, people hadn’t begged and screamed for the clunky, inconvenient version back?

Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. Actually Druidcraft, Thaumaturgy, and Prestidigitstion being Cantrips instead of Class Features is a great example of the advant a ges of the Neo-Cancian system, because it allows Non-Druids, Non-Cleeics, and Non-Wizards to get that flavor through other means, like Race (Fairies get Druidcraft, Tieflings get Thaumaturgy, High Elf can get Prestidigitstion, etc.), Subclass (Nature Clerics get Druidcraft, Arcana Clerics get Presitifigitstion, Bards can get any Cantrip, etc.), or Feats (Magic Initate allows Class bending, Strixhaven Feats allow non-Druids to get Druidcraft, etc.).

 

[Malmuria]

I feel like digital tools obviate a lot of the problems with looking up spells and running monsters, or at least have the potential too. Still, I think the books could give advice on how a monster might behave tactically, akin to The Monsters Know What They're Doing. IMO that would be more useful than the long lore sections.

 

[Charlaquin]

Here you go:

Vecna the Archlich
Medium Undead (Wizard), Lawful Evil
Armor Class 18 (natural armor)
Hit Points 272 (32d8 + 128)
Speed 30 ft.
STR
14 (+2)
DEX
16 (+3)
CON
18 (+4)
INT
22 (+6)
WIS
24 (+7)
CHA
16 (+3)
Saving Throws Con +12, Int +14, Wis +15
Skills Arcana +22, History +14, Insight +15, Perception +15
Damage Resistances cold, lightning, necrotic
Damage Immunities poison; bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing from nonmagical attacks
Condition Immunities charmed, exhaustion, frightened, paralyzed, poisoned, stunned
Senses truesight 120 ft., passive Perception 25
Languages Common, Draconic, Elvish, Infernal
Challenge 26 (90,000 XP) Proficiency Bonus +8
Legendary Resistance (5/Day). If Vecna fails a saving throw, he can choose to succeed instead.
Special Equipment. Vecna carries a magic dagger named Afterthought. In the hands of anyone other than Vecna, Afterthought is a +2 dagger.
Undying. If Vecna is slain, his soul refuses to accept its fate and lives on as a disembodied spirit that fashions a new body for itself after 1d100 years. Vecna’s soul can fashion a new body even if its old body was burned to ash or otherwise obliterated. When the new body is complete, Vecna regains all his hit points and becomes active again. Vecna’s new body appears anywhere within 100 miles of where Vecna was slain.
Unusual Nature. Vecna doesn’t require air, food, drink, or sleep.
Actions
Multiattack. Vecna uses Flight of the Damned (if available), Rotten Fate, or Spellcasting. He then makes two attacks with Afterthought.
Afterthought. Melee Weapon Attack: +13 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 7 (1d4 + 5) piercing damage plus 9 (2d8) necrotic damage. If the target is a creature, it is afflicted by entropic magic, taking 9 (2d8) necrotic damage at the start of each of its turns. Immediately after taking this damage on its turn, the target can make a DC 20 Constitution saving throw, ending the effect on itself on a success. Until it succeeds on this save, the afflicted target can’t regain hit points.
Flight of the Damned (Recharge 5–6). Vecna conjures a torrent of flying, spectral entities that fill a 120-foot cone and pass through all creatures in that area before dissipating. Each creature in that area must make a DC 22 Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 36 (8d8) necrotic damage and is frightened of Vecna for 1 minute. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage and isn’t frightened. A frightened creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.
Rotten Fate. Vecna causes necrotic magic to engulf one creature he can see within 120 feet of himself. The target must make a DC 22 Constitution saving throw, taking 96 (8d8 + 60) necrotic damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A Humanoid killed by this magic rises as a zombie (see the Monster Manual) at the start of Vecna’s next turn and acts immediately after Vecna in the initiative order. The zombie is under Vecna’s control.
Spellcasting. Vecna casts one of the following spells, requiring no material components and using Intelligence as the spellcasting ability (spell save DC 22):
At will: animate dead (as an action), detect magic, dispel magic, fly, lightning bolt, mage hand, prestidigitation
2/day each: dimension door, invisibility, scrying (as an action)
1/day each: dominate monster, globe of invulnerability, plane shift (self only).
Bonus Actions
Vile Teleport. Vecna teleports, along with any equipment he is wearing or carrying, up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space he can see. He can cause each creature of his choice within 15 feet of his destination space to take 10 (3d6) psychic damage. If at least one creature takes this damage, Vecna regains 80 hit points.
Reactions
Vecna can take up to three reactions per round but only one per turn.
Dread Counterspell. Vecna utters a dread word to interrupt a creature he can see that is casting a spell. If the spell is 4th level or lower, it fails and has no effect. If the spell is 5th level or higher, Vecna makes an Intelligence check (DC 10 + the spell’s level). On a success, the spell fails and has no effect. Whatever the spell’s level, the caster takes 10 (3d6) psychic damage if the spell fails.
Fell Rebuke. In response to being hit by an attack, Vecna utters a fell word, dealing 10 (3d6) necrotic damage to the attacker, and Vecna teleports, along with any equipment he is wearing or carrying, up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space he can see.

That’s really cool, actually

 

[Charlaquin]

100%
lightning bolt 29(8d6) lightning rage 100ft dex save DC22 half

but again compare this to teh "or this" of The target must make a DC 22 Constitution saving throw, taking 96 (8d8 + 60) necrotic damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. A Humanoid killed by this magic rises as a undead

how odd a situation where 30ish points of lightning damage in 100ft line is better then 90iss necrotic...

When there’s about 3 or 4 targets in the line?

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't like tying his damage calculation assumes he attacks with that dagger in melee... especially when you consider that he most likely wants to avoid melee

Nah dawg, this design absolutely wants to be in melee so he can take full advantage of his action economy. Being in melee gives him the opportunity to use Fell Rebuke.

I think the optimal way to play him would probably be to start his turn with a Vile Teleport to within 15 feet of as many targets as possible, then multi attack using Rotten Fate if he can kill with it, otherwise Flight of the Damned if he has it and can hit at least 2 targets with it, otherwise Lightning Bolt if he can hit at least 3 targets with it, otherwise Rotten Fate, then move into melee range - ideally with the character who’s next up in the initiative order - and use his two Afterthought attacks. Then when he gets attacked back in melee he can Fell Rebuke to do a bit of off-turn damage, get some distance again, and set himself up to heal when he uses Fell Teleport again on his next turn.

Technically it would probably be better to cast his spell, then teleport, then use his melee attacks, but I’m not sure if you’re allowed to break up a multiattack-in-progress with a bonus action. From an in-world logic perspective I don’t see why that wouldn’t be possible, but from the strict wording of the rules I don’t think it works.

 

[dave2008]

By that logic, a PC is not limited to his character sheet... But we all know a player doesn't just get to add stuff to his character because he feels like it...

Yes, the DM is different than a player. The DM handles a lot more than what any one player is responsible and needs the freedom to color outside the lines and the structure the PCs staying within the lines. The are fundamentally different jobs.

Are you kidding? If a "new" DM is trying to run a CR 26 monster, they are going to do it "wrong" regardless (as in not going by the rules as written) unless they have devoted a lot of time to learning how the game works. Trying to understand everything in this stat block is a nightmare for a new DM IMO. At least with spells and spellcasting, you have a common ground to PCs for the DM to work with.

The general concept, no I am not. But I could see a first time (as in first campaign) DM running this Vecna and it could be a lot of fun.

Yes, you have to look up/ rely on spells. OH NO! The horror! It's only what players and DMs have already been doing for decades now.

And 4e showed us there is a better way. 4e completely did away with spell lists for monsters and it worked great. One thing almost everyone loves about 4e is the monster design. Just because something has been done for a long time doesn't mean it is a good thing.

OH NO! The horror - we are trying something new and fresh!

Anyway, I see little point in continuing this conversation. Reply if you wish, but I won't be. We simply will never agree on this issue or, IMO, the general direction WotC is taking the game. While you might be fine as an old-hat at D&D with all the changes, there are plenty of us old-hats out there who aren't.

Agreed. I don't think there is any issue with what you want. I just also don't think there is an issue with wanting something different. Maybe I am just more tolerant or flexible than most. The changes, one way or the other simply don't bother me.

 

[dave2008]

I see I am not the only only one to literally hate the new stat block.
These offer no versatility and assume that a foe will be encountered only once.
What if Vecna (or any lich for that matter) appears to fight a few rounds and must go because the characters receives reinforcement?
Then the lich prepares accordingly to the "strengths and weaknesses" of the characters a few levels/months/days or whatever after?
It does not allow for recurring villains. These are just static monsters with no potential for tactical change in their behaviors. Not unless a DM is willing to build that villain from the ground up again which is, in essence, as much work (if not more) than just building one from scratch.
At least, spell slots gave the DM a versatility in handling the monster. Now... I a player owns the same book, he can be pretty sure what the foe will be able to do. That is a bad design option. A terrible one. MotM is really not a book a like and it has disapointed me quite a lot.

I will point out that this statblock is just a starting point for Vecna. If he were to leave an encounter it is completely feasible that he comes back with new spells or magic powers the 2nd time. Just like you might have to updated his spell list it they just gave you a list of spells.

However, I created a version just for you: Vecna the Archlich (standard, CR 26)

 

[dave2008]

I feel like digital tools obviate a lot of the problems with looking up spells and running monsters, or at least have the potential too. Still, I think the books could give advice on how a monster might behave tactically, akin to The Monsters Know What They're Doing. IMO that would be more useful than the long lore sections.

Yep, for me that is the big loss in the MM and DMG. I love the simple design of 5e monsters for people not using magic items, the basic rules, or not interesting in really any optimization. However, WotC really should have provide guidance on how to modify monsters / encounters to accommodate those groups. There are a few simple things you can do to bring monsters more in line with those groups expactations.