New Stealth vs. Old Stealth

[TarionzCousin]

What's the difference between the updated PHB2 Stealth rules and the original PHB1 rules?

And why does it matter?

 

[Saeviomagy]

The original rules are pretty vague and open to interpretation for a start.

They COULD be read as being the same as the new rules (with one exception, see below). A lot of weird rulings were possible (like "it takes a standard action to see someone who is stealthed, and they're undetectable unless you do", meaning stealthing at the end of your turn made you nigh invulnerable).

The big changes are these:
1. It definately only takes a minor action to roll a perception check on your turn.
2. When you make a stealth check it must beat the passive perception of targets or it doesn't work.
3. You may only make a stealth check to begin hiding while you are in improved cover or total concealment.

Why does this matter? Primarily to stop warlocks waltzing about permanently hidden because they get concealment for moving 3 squares. Secondly it makes it more feasable to find a hidden foe: previously you could either find a hidden foe OR attack them, not both.
But in addition it makes the stealth game a bit more interesting: it's easy to find cover or concealment. It's more difficult to find improved cover or total concealment that you can actually attack from.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Why does this matter? Primarily to stop warlocks waltzing about permanently hidden because they get concealment for moving 3 squares.

Because, of course, Warlocks were insanely overpowered.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[robsenworldaccount]

The new rules function predominantly to make rogues the true kings of stealth. What this means is all the powers they may choose from grants greater flexibility and use of stealth than non rogues (or multiclass rogues)

For example. Rogue A. uses a move action to gain superior cover by going behind X object. His move has ended, he makes a stealth check vs monsters passive perception
Then he uses Deft Strike to move two squares and assault (w. Sneak attack) his chosen victim.
Rogues are now the true kings of stealth.

 

[Negflar2099]

I think this clarifies things a little for me. Lets see if I got this right. Imagine the scenario below:

Rogue = R
Enemy Orc = O
Pillar = P
Empty sq = X

On the first round this is the setup (with no fog or any other cover or concealment other than the pillar).


xxxxxxxpp
xxxxxxxpp
xxxxxxxxxO
R

On his turn the rogue moves behind the pillar and makes a stealth check at the end of his move (because at the end of his move he has total cover granted by the pillar). He beats the Orcs passive perception so he's considered hidden from the orc. If he didn't have the Fleeting Ghost power he would have taken a -5 penalty to stealth for moving more than 2 squares (-10 if he ran) but he has that power so he doesn't take the penalty.

Now its setup like this

xxxxxxxxR
xxxxxxxxpp
xxxxxxxxpp
xxxxxxxxxxO

The rogue is hidden from the orc who doesn't know where he is. if the Rogue moves out from behind the pillar his stealth automatically ends at the end of his move (and it grants him no benefit to the attack). So instead he's going to use a power that lets him shift two squares and then make a ranged attack. He shifts around the corner and makes the attack and gets combat advantage because the stealth effect doesn't end until the attack that ends the effect is resolved. After the attack he is no longer hidden.

If the Rogue opted to do nothing on his turn he could remain hidden. On the Orc's turn he could spend a minor action to roll a Perception check to find the Rogue. Instead he if he could simply walk around the pillar and find the rogue automatically except the Rogue has Chameleon and so can remain hidden in that situation.

Is this all right or am I more confused than I think?

EDIT: Added X's because the post doesn't recognize spaces apparently.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Now its setup like this

xxxxxxxxR
xxxxxxxxpp
xxxxxxxxpp
xxxxxxxxxxO

The rogue is hidden from the orc who doesn't know where he is.

I don't know if you got the rules correct; that's why I started this thread.

However, I would bet that the orc actually knows where the rogue is if he saw him move there. And since there isn't facing in 4E, the orc couldn't have his back turned, right?

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Q&A.

 

[deleteme123456]

The rogue can certainly deft strike out from behind the pillar and retain CA through the duration of the attack. (Do note that deft strike is not a shift, but a move.) After making the attack, he's not hidden, but if he had a move action left (say he didn't make the attack until his next turn after moving behind the pillar), he could move back behind the pillar and make a stealth check; if it beats the enemy's passive perception, the rogue is hidden and can repeat this trick next turn.

If the enemy moves such that the rogue no longer has cover or concealment, then the rogue will need Chameleon or some other reaction power to avoid losing "hidden" status.

Whether the enemy is actually aware of the rogue or not... well, that's a little fuzzy in my mind. I would generally rule that the enemy is aware of who attacked him (at worst, he turns around quickly after being shot at) and which way you went, but doesn't know exactly where you are, because you're hidden and he didn't have line of sight to you for part of your movement.

 

[DracoSuave]

Stealthed doesn't mean your location is unknown. It means you cannot be seen and cannot be heard. If you went to a definate location, and haven't moved from there, the opponent does not 'forget' you were there. He just can't see you, and 'guessing' your location is easy.

However, he has no way (barring perception) to tell if you've left that position afterwards.

 

[deleteme123456]

Well, I would say that if you were out of line of sight when you moved, the opponent only has your last known location and direction. Once you got behind the pillar, for all the Orc knows, you started dancing, or teleported somewhere completely different, or moved a couple squares north or even northwest. If you're not out of line of sight while moving, then the opponent knows where you are, and if you pass a stealth check at the end of it, he knows where you were and may be able to deduce whether you could possibly be anywhere else or not (but you are still hidden, as long as there's cover/concealment).

 

[Celestian]

For example. Rogue A. uses a move action to gain superior cover by going behind X object. His move has ended, he makes a stealth check vs monsters passive perception
Then he uses Deft Strike to move two squares and assault (w. Sneak attack) his chosen victim.
Rogues are now the true kings of stealth.

After reading this I dug through the phb1 and can't find where it says what type of action "stealth" skill is. Is it minor or free? If so where are the rules for this?

Thanks!