D&D 4E New Take on the 4E Druid...

[eloquentaction]

I think I'd prefer to see the defensive build taken out to give more attention to the offensive and leader builds.
I'd like to see a lot more animal conjuration. The few that you have are nice. Brother Wolf is cool. Stirge Attack is even cooler. I would like to see more variety though.

Thieving Magpie
You summon a bird to steal a small item from an enemy.

Snakefire
You can enchant a projectile so that it transforms into a cobra when fired.

Living Lightning
You summon a lightning elemental that heals an ally everytime it deals damage to an enemy.

I'd also like to see things like...

Burnwillow Weapon
Until the end of the encounter, target wooden weapon gets a +1 enchantment bonus and becomes Flaming.

The Arcane Archer was weak. I think it would be cool to merge the Arcane Archer into the Druid and give the Druid effects that enchant wooden weapons and leather armor.

Ballad of Ironhide
Allies with natural armor or leather armor gain +1 AC for the rest of the encounter.

I'm not sure why the poor Warden needs to be left out in the cold.

I kind of like the concept.

Are you suggesting that there should be a shifter druid spec and a non-shifter druid spec and to merge Defensive and Attack forms? Even then, I'm not sure I like the idea.

But I do like your ideas for new spells. I like those a lot.

As I said earlier, this isn't dead - I'm just busy arguing about magic numbers and trying to finish up some card set changes.

Plus my kids are running me ragged and my girlfriend says she's undersexed.

My.Life.Is.Hell.

;-)

I'll get to it. Promise.

-- Hirahito

 

[chronoplasm]

I don't know about 'non-shifter' druids exactly.

Heres an idea.

Wild-Shape Druids
and...
Elemental-Shape Druids

Wild-Shape Druids transform into animals and buff their party with successful melee attacks.
Elemental-Shape Druids transform into elementals (fire, water, earth, air) and buff their party with successful ranged attacks.

Both of these could have defensive forms built into them.

Maybe at later levels you can gain the ability to shift into both a wild-shape and an elemental-shape at the same time. Like a fire lion or an air tiger or an earth bear.

 

[chronoplasm]

Refining my prior idea a bit... what if different forms can actually change the druids role? While the druid could be primarily a leader, different forms would make the druid a bit of a wild card.

Wild Shapes:
Tiger Shape= Striker (Tiger's Pounce. Leap from afar to deal damage to an enemy.)
Rhino Shape= Defender (Rhino's Challenge. Whenever the marked enemy attacks anyone but you, you may charge at that enemy.)
Lion Shape= Leader (Lion's Roar. Raises the party's morale.)
Bat Shape= Controller (Bat's Shriek. Piercing soundwaves strike enemies deaf.)

Elemental Shapes:
Fire Shape= Striker (Flame Tongue. A blast of fire damages an enemy and allows you to heal an ally.)
Earth Shape= Defender (Mountain Challenge. Everytime the marked enemy attacks anyone but you, you may heal an ally.)
Water Shape= Leader (Healing Rain. Refreshing rain heals nearby allies.)
Air Shape= Controller (Tornado. Blasts of wind picks up enemies within radius and throws them, dealing damage to them.)

 

[eloquentaction]

Refining my prior idea a bit... what if different forms can actually change the druids role? While the druid could be primarily a leader, different forms would make the druid a bit of a wild card.

Wild Shapes:
Tiger Shape= Striker (Tiger's Pounce. Leap from afar to deal damage to an enemy.)
Rhino Shape= Defender (Rhino's Challenge. Whenever the marked enemy attacks anyone but you, you may charge at that enemy.)
Lion Shape= Leader (Lion's Roar. Raises the party's morale.)
Bat Shape= Controller (Bat's Shriek. Piercing soundwaves strike enemies deaf.)

Elemental Shapes:
Fire Shape= Striker (Flame Tongue. A blast of fire damages an enemy and allows you to heal an ally.)
Earth Shape= Defender (Mountain Challenge. Everytime the marked enemy attacks anyone but you, you may heal an ally.)
Water Shape= Leader (Healing Rain. Refreshing rain heals nearby allies.)
Air Shape= Controller (Tornado. Blasts of wind picks up enemies within radius and throws them, dealing damage to them.)

I love the ideas, but the more you give a hybrid class utility in other areas, the more you have to limit their power in those new areas.

Otherwise a Druid becomes a god in that they can do all things just by flipping into a different shape.

Malcolm_n limited this by matching the level of the powers with a lower level power in the role he was emulating.

I kept the same idea and then tightened this further by making it more difficult to shapeshift while in combat and / or making shapeshifting more limiting and by finally making it where each 'specialty' had a good power with bonuses for them staying in that form. Kind of a not-so-subtle guide for them to stay in their preferred form without making it a requirement.

I think making the druid a weaker than average Leader with some defender and striker abilities is far more preferable than a class that can do everything, just not very well.

 

[LordArchaon]

I think that what 4e is doing, or better WILL do with PhB 2, is splitting the druid class into two or three classes. I personally think it could be split into even four classes, one of them being the most hybrid.
The other classes would have to be in my opinion the Shaman taking the leader role (and here the developers agree with me, you'll see), the "Green Mage", can't find a better name (controller with nature spells, I have plans of making a similar class), and the Shapeshifter, the striker.
I see Wizards already screwed up from this point of view, making the shapeshifter the true druid while leaving some leaderish and controllerish abilities to it.
I would personally make the true Druid a hybrid but no more hybrid than a paladin and not centered on wildshape. Maybe making it primarily a defender (to fill up the roles), with mechanics that emphazise the fact that she is tough, durable and "sticky" but only because of nature's magic (primal magic).

Speculations and opinions apart, what I want to say is that 4e philosophy tends to focused classes. Hybridism is accomplished through multiclassing, and I'm sure they'll give us an expanded multiclassing system very soon.
I'm also very happy with this philosophy because it's clearly an evolution.
After all, if you try and think about it without the overly present "they are all about making money" mindset, you can't help thinking that if they build up from 3 editions, and they developed this one for years, no change in it can be for the worse. At worst it can be against our personal feelings and flavors, but that's very often just because we have grown up with previous edition concepts and we feel personally attached to them.
Maybe the only thing that could go wrong could be listening too much to the complaints and going against their design guidelines, for example by making a Druid with the same variety of powers of the 3rd edition Druid. That only screws up the game, because it will be a class completely different from the others, and will eventually spawn a full series of classes made taking it as a model. Which would eventually bring up the very well known phenomenon known as "BLOAT".

 

[eloquentaction]

I think that what 4e is doing, or better WILL do with PhB 2, is splitting the druid class into two or three classes. I personally think it could be split into even four classes, one of them being the most hybrid.
The other classes would have to be in my opinion the Shaman taking the leader role (and here the developers agree with me, you'll see), the "Green Mage", can't find a better name (controller with nature spells, I have plans of making a similar class), and the Shapeshifter, the striker.
I see Wizards already screwed up from this point of view, making the shapeshifter the true druid while leaving some leaderish and controllerish abilities to it.
I would personally make the true Druid a hybrid but no more hybrid than a paladin and not centered on wildshape. Maybe making it primarily a defender (to fill up the roles), with mechanics that emphazise the fact that she is tough, durable and "sticky" but only because of nature's magic (primal magic).

Speculations and opinions apart, what I want to say is that 4e philosophy tends to focused classes. Hybridism is accomplished through multiclassing, and I'm sure they'll give us an expanded multiclassing system very soon.
I'm also very happy with this philosophy because it's clearly an evolution.
After all, if you try and think about it without the overly present "they are all about making money" mindset, you can't help thinking that if they build up from 3 editions, and they developed this one for years, no change in it can be for the worse. At worst it can be against our personal feelings and flavors, but that's very often just because we have grown up with previous edition concepts and we feel personally attached to them.
Maybe the only thing that could go wrong could be listening too much to the complaints and going against their design guidelines, for example by making a Druid with the same variety of powers of the 3rd edition Druid. That only screws up the game, because it will be a class completely different from the others, and will eventually spawn a full series of classes made taking it as a model. Which would eventually bring up the very well known phenomenon known as "BLOAT".

That being said, is the current rendition of my Druid "Bloated"?

I don't believe it should be split into 3 classes as I think that would defeat the purpose of the design.

However, I could see that it needs to be refocused. Something I'm already thinking about, actually.

-- Hirahito

 

[chronoplasm]

The way I see it, the druid you have here has only one role too many.
Most of the base classes we have fill one role primarily but can also serve a secondary role. As mentioned, the Paladin is mainly a Defender, but has enough elements of a Leader that it can potentially fill that role if needed.

I think that each of these secondary roles are tied into the power sources.
Martial= Striker secondary role
Divine= Leader secondary role
Arcane= Controller secondary role

So I think we have to first figure out what role the Primal power source correlates to. I'm betting on Striker, based on the Barbarian as a Defender, but I could be very wrong.

Then we have to figure out the Druid's main role.
Whatever aspects of the Druid don't fit into the Role+Power Source (secondary role) setup should go into another class.
So rather than breaking the Druid up into three classes, I think we can stand to break it up into just two.

Personally, I think that the Druid should be a Leader with a hint of Striker (as I think that all the Primals should have a hint of Striker in them).

Some things I would like to see in the Druid:

Wild Shape could be used on allies as a buff.
Wild Shape could include 'inspiring shapes' like the Lion which boosts morale of the party with its roar.
Elemental attacks could have additional effects that heal allies.
Elemental power could also be used to buff allies. For example, Stone Skin and stuff like that.
The Druid should be able to summon animal companions to help the party. Elemental companions would be pretty cool too.
Elemental Shapes would be interesting for higher tier powers.


I think that the shapeshifter that transforms into animals to protect allies should be a different class. Sounds pretty cool.

 

[eloquentaction]

The way I see it, the druid you have here has only one role too many.
Most of the base classes we have fill one role primarily but can also serve a secondary role. As mentioned, the Paladin is mainly a Defender, but has enough elements of a Leader that it can potentially fill that role if needed.

I think that each of these secondary roles are tied into the power sources.
Martial= Striker secondary role
Divine= Leader secondary role
Arcane= Controller secondary role

So I think we have to first figure out what role the Primal power source correlates to. I'm betting on Striker, based on the Barbarian as a Defender, but I could be very wrong.

Then we have to figure out the Druid's main role.
Whatever aspects of the Druid don't fit into the Role+Power Source (secondary role) setup should go into another class.
So rather than breaking the Druid up into three classes, I think we can stand to break it up into just two.

Personally, I think that the Druid should be a Leader with a hint of Striker (as I think that all the Primals should have a hint of Striker in them).

Some things I would like to see in the Druid:

Wild Shape could be used on allies as a buff.
Wild Shape could include 'inspiring shapes' like the Lion which boosts morale of the party with its roar.
Elemental attacks could have additional effects that heal allies.
Elemental power could also be used to buff allies. For example, Stone Skin and stuff like that.
The Druid should be able to summon animal companions to help the party. Elemental companions would be pretty cool too.
Elemental Shapes would be interesting for higher tier powers.


I think that the shapeshifter that transforms into animals to protect allies should be a different class. Sounds pretty cool.

Chronoplasm -

The design I'm thinking of currently will have 2 main designs. There's the 'casting' druid which is a Leader in that he buffs, summons and has a few heals.

Then there is a shifting druid which will be mostly a Defender role with some buffs, a lot of self buffs and no healing. In my current list, I have the ability to use casting elements while shifted - I think I'm going to keep that, just bump it up to a higher level.

So... it would be a Leader / Defender combo while dropping the Striker role down to a very minor status. What do you guys think?

-- Hirahito

 

[Oldtimer]

So... it would be a Leader / Defender combo while dropping the Striker role down to a very minor status. What do you guys think?

-- Hirahito

Yes! That would be the perfect combination for me. Exactly how I envision a druid.

 

[chronoplasm]

Chronoplasm -

The design I'm thinking of currently will have 2 main designs. There's the 'casting' druid which is a Leader in that he buffs, summons and has a few heals.

Then there is a shifting druid which will be mostly a Defender role with some buffs, a lot of self buffs and no healing. In my current list, I have the ability to use casting elements while shifted - I think I'm going to keep that, just bump it up to a higher level.

So... it would be a Leader / Defender combo while dropping the Striker role down to a very minor status. What do you guys think?

-- Hirahito

I can get behind that.