New Thought on Powers

[GM Dave]

What I am thinking on is how 4e powers tend to be combat focused. They have the separate category of Utility Powers and Rituals for non-combat.

This simplifies the powers but limits most of the game play and application for the character's powers to encounter situations.

I was thinking that this could be altered by writing powers with a combat effect and an out of combat effect based upon the fluff.

For example with Charm Person

The in combat effect would be to daze the opponent as they tried to sort through their feelings.

The out of combat effect would be to provide a +5 modifier to interactions (Diplomacy, Bluff, etc) out of combat for an hour.

You could even go closer to Old School Charm with the additional rider that Each failure moves the target closer to a +5 modifier that lasts days (like the disease rules in 4e) until the target recovers from the exposure.


A Paladin's Defender Aura might add +2 to interactions with people of the same alignment or religion as the Paladin while providing a -2 to interactions with an opposed religion.


A spell like Raise Dead might be a strong healing spell inside of combat or keep a person taking actions for a round or two after they are 'dead' (It might offset penalties from being raised from the dead for a round or two in combat). It is out of combat that time and materials are used to bring the person back from dead on a more permanent basis.


This all adds text which could add to the size of the rules but the addition is smaller then writing up full sets of new powers to cover out of combat and in combat powers as you would not need two sets of fluff text. There might still be dedicated combat choices but it allows 'less optimum' damage powers to have a balancing influence which increases their value.

 

[harlokin]

For example with Charm Person

The in combat effect would be to daze the opponent as they tried to sort through their feelings.

The combat version could be called Emo Enemy

 

[Dausuul]

Mm... I don't like it. It reinforces the sense that combat is a distinct subgame in a hermetically sealed bubble, divorced from the continuity of the game world. That's one of the things that bugs me about 4E.

Why not just have rituals be usable at combat speed, but retain the material component costs?

 

[harlokin]

If rituals can be performed in combat they in my opinion cease to be rituals, and you would need another name for powers that are very time consuming and elaborate.

 

[GM Dave]

If rituals can be performed in combat they in my opinion cease to be rituals, and you would need another name for powers that are very time consuming and elaborate.

The suggestion still allows for rituals but you would not have to have two power listings to cover this same amount of game space.

The raise dead that is a 'battle raise' would not be permanent and would return the character to the 'dead' state at the end of the usage.

The out of battle ritual would still be needed to perform a permanent change.

The 4e and 3e game both had versions of spells/powers that could return a 'dead' character to the fight if it was done in the midst of combat (though normally these recoveries were considered as if removing the impact of death if preformed). Many Epic abilities were based on the recovery from 0 hit points or negative state.

I think this would do more to unify the rules of 'out of combat' and 'in combat' states if the abilities were more united. This is not really that much of an 'innovation' as monk abilities in 4e that were at will like Spider Climbing were beginning to cross the barrier between what was a combat and non-combat power.

It also saves book and text space instead of having to cover the same 'idea' three different times.

For example there are many paragon powers and attacks that include summoning wings for the length of the attack. There are additionally utillity powers that will grant wings to fly. There are also rituals that create flying steeds, or grant other modes of movement.

It is doing the same thing but stated repeatedly for each paragon, class, and ritual pick.

 

[harlokin]

Apologies if I've missed the point you are making, but the advantage of having Rituals as separate mechanic is that they allowed them to be used by non-Casters.

 

[GM Dave]

Apologies if I've missed the point you are making, but the advantage of having Rituals as separate mechanic is that they allowed them to be used by non-Casters.

I think that denying access to rituals for non-casters would be a good thing.

I am sure there is a segment of people might feel that if you spend all day swinging a sword and winning in battle through Conan style brawn that it is okay at the end of battle to whip out a pouch of components and summon a phantom steed or open a portal to the next adventure site.

There are games like WoW that simulate this style of life with Fighter types that brew potions or enchant mystic cloth.

Personally, I think that people should live their after combat life like their combat style. If you depend on swords and armour then buy a horse or a pegasus.

If you are a storm lord hurling magical bolts of lightning at enemies then you should predict and control weather. You should travel by lightning or storm cloud.

This is a bit of a theme issue with me but I also think that it makes a better feel of story.

I also don't think that some one who chooses to pick up a bow or a sword to fight with is going to feel that their being punished for not being able to use some high level magic when they don't show any usage in their regular life.

I understand their will be some that might point to something like Aragon in LotR as an example of a Ritual using fighter but I don't think Aragon is really a Ritual user but instead someone with some field knowledge of herbs and healing. Mundane skill instead of trained supernatural ability that usually breaks the 'regular' laws of nature.

 

[FireLance]

Rather than have one spell with two different uses, how about having a ritual grant a long-casting and a short-casting ability?

For example, the knock ritual could grant access to the unlock encounter ability: a standard action utility power that could be used to either allow the caster to substitute 1d20 + 2 + Intelligence modifier for a Thievery check to pick locks, or (with a successful Aid Another check) add his Intelligence bonus to another character's Thievery check.

The raise dead ritual could grant access to the revive encounter power: a minor action utility power that grants a death save with a bonus equal to the user's Wisdom modifier. On a successful save (10+), one failed death save is negated, and if the result is 20+, the target can spend a healing surge as normal.

 

[Tallifer]

Rituals already give a wide variety of non-combat spells and tricks (such as martial practices). However I would like the Powers to have some use in a non-combat game, or have more flexibility.

Powers should never be as effective or permanent as rituals. That is why rituals take long to cast and cost gold. But I can see Encounter and Daily Powers having Utility style effects. Just to spice things up.

Anyways, good thread. Not sure if the idea would work, but it makes me think.

 

[Number48]

LOL. I think it's funny when people assume that 5E will even have the 4E powers. Don't get me wrong, I think it's more probably than not, I just don't assume it.

I have my idea I want to see that's a solution for this. It's kinda long. Want me to post it?