New UA Paladin Sacred Oaths are Oath of Conquest and the Oath of Treachery

I'm disappointed about no Oath of Liberty, but I'll take a look at what they are bringing, when they get around to getting the page to work.

 

[Morrus]

My thoughts on the new Sacred Oaths. http://questinggm.blogspot.my/2016/12/unearthing-arcana-paladin-sacred-oaths.html

I'll leave my reply to your thoughts behind the tree in my back garden.

 

[Wolfreich]

I don't understand the hate on the Oath of Treachery. It seems a perfect fit for a Gnomish Paladin of Baravar Cloakshadow. My favorite kind of Gnomish religious characters. May throw some Rogue (Thief) in there for a little more sneakiness and skills. Go Dex and Charisma build, Rapier and Medium/Light Armor.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I wish people would stop talking about Conquest as if it has to be evil. Heck even Treachery doesn't have to be evil it can be an example of a coward paladin that has fallen from their ways or become disillusioned. Admittedly Treachery mechanically is a bit harder to explain.

But nothing out of the conquest abilities or even their oaths dictate that they have to be evil.

They aren't forced to be evil, that is true, but as written it is really really hard for them to be good. Ruling through Fear, brooking no dissent, at best they can go Lawful Neutral, but that sort of slavish devotion to might makes right and unquestioning devotion to an iron-fisted rule have some incredibly negative connotations in history and literature.

I think they should do just some minor tweaking to make them more law and less iron-fisted law, and that will help.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

I don't understand the hate on the Oath of Treachery.

Labels have consequences, nobody likes a traitor. Maybe Oath of Deception would get more love.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Oath of Conquest
Like it. Seems that the 7th & 15th level powers could both go to 7th level. Making room for a better 15th feature - even a reduced version of the 20th level feature.

Yeah, that fear aura is super niche and weak. Unless I'm mistaken, the conquest paladin doesnt even have any fear spells on his list other than the equally unimpressive channel divinity feature.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Yeah, that fear aura is super niche and weak. Unless I'm mistaken, the conquest paladin doesnt even have any fear spells on his list!

Their channel divinity Conquering Strike uses fear.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Their channel divinity Conquering Strike uses fear.

Yeah, and he has fear, I'd missed that on my initial read. I blame lack of caffeine! Still, pretty lame. The ancients get half damage vs magic for comparison.

 

[Argyle King]

Mechanically, Treachery seems a lot better.

I like the flavor of Conquest, but the late level features are things that other classes get much earlier.

Maybe it's just me, but an aura which gives targets disadvantage on fear saves seems a lot less useful than an aura which gives me advantage on melee attacks. Hello Great Weapon fighting!

 

[Istbor]

They aren't forced to be evil, that is true, but as written it is really really hard for them to be good. Ruling through Fear, brooking no dissent, at best they can go Lawful Neutral, but that sort of slavish devotion to might makes right and unquestioning devotion to an iron-fisted rule have some incredibly negative connotations in history and literature.

I think they should do just some minor tweaking to make them more law and less iron-fisted law, and that will help.

Nations/organizations allowing for dissent to exist is a pretty modern occurrence. In the past and in a lot of fiction, dissent is usually dealt with quickly and viciously. Even by 'Good' or 'Rightful' rulers. I see nothing there that declares it as evil. I do see things that walk a line. A line that the player has to deal with and roleplay. Once that could potentially cause the kind of internal conflict that fuels interesting stories, or that leads to an oath-breaker(or treachery) that is also not evil. Maybe even a tragic telling of a good person who falls due to these tenets and later has a chance to redeem themselves, and maybe the organization as well.

I hear a lot of grumpiness and disinterest, but all I see are chances for interesting, real, and compelling characters that drive the story to interesting places.

 

[gyor]

"Gyor [MENTION=6670153]gyor[/MENTION]1
[MENTION=32417]MikeM[/MENTION]earls I find it funny that you can fall as a Hellknights by showing mercy 2 become a Chaotic Good Oath of Treachery Blackguard "

Mike Mearls liked my above comment.