New variant Controllers? Interrupts as class feature!

[Angellis_ater]

So, reading a thread here on ENWorld I came across someone saying that a Martial Controller really should have been the rogue, using immediate interrupts to attack and "control" the flow of battle.

Now, this got me thinking that perhaps, just as Defenders (mark), Leaders (heal) and Strikers (bonusdamage) have "their thing" - Controllers should focus on Immediate Interrupts.

My first experiment is going to be to change the Ranger (not the Rogue) and make it into a martial controller. Imagine the class having an Immediate Interrupt which it can use to make a Ranged Attack vs Reflex with a hit slowing or immobilizing an enemy. The "ranged Ranger" suddenly becomes far more viable, and the numerous Interrupt powers sure fit better.

How would you do this? What would be a good "signature power" for the Ranger?

I am thinking something like "Crippling Shot" - Hit deals Dex damage and the creature is slowed until the end of it's turn.

A wizard could be given an immediate interrupt which creates difficult terrain in Int number of adjacent squares until the start of his next turn.

What would you change/implement for this?

 

[RangerWickett]

I like this idea. The question is, how regularly can you use this trick without it being overpowered/obnoxious? Maybe 2/encounter, sorta like leader healing?

Maybe make it something like, every controller has an immediate interrupt that limits enemies' movement. Try to give each class 2 options.

Ranger (ranged).
Suppressive Fire
Encounter * Weapon.
Immediate Interrupt.
Trigger: An enemy you can see moves.
Range weapon.
Atk: Dex vs. AC.
Hit: 1[W] damage and the target is immobilized until the end of this turn.
(This is probably way too good.)

Ranger (beast).
Run Interference
Encounter * Beast
Immediate Interrupt.
Trigger: An enemy you can see moves.
Effect: Your beast companion moves its speed.
Target: The triggering enemy.
Atk: xx vs. AC. (However beasts work.)
Hit: 1 damage, and the target is slowed.


(I'm not sure what to do for a melee ranger that doesn't step all over the fighter's toes.)


Wizard (evoker).
Flaming Barrier
Encounter
Immediate Interrupt.
Trigger: An enemy you can see moves.
Area wall 5 within 10
Effect: You create a zone of flame in the area, which lasts until the end of your next turn. Any creature that enters or ends its turn in the zone takes fire damage equal to 1d6 + your Intelligence modifier.



Wizard (illusionist).
Phantom Wall
Encounter
Immediate Interrupt.
Trigger: An enemy you can see moves.
Area wall 5 within 10
Effect: You create a zone in the area that looks like a solid wall, which lasts until the end of your next turn. Enemies cannot move through the zone, and their line of sight and line of effect through the zone is blocked.



Wizard (enchanter).
Hallucinatory Wall
Encounter
Immediate Interrupt.
Trigger: An enemy you can see moves.
Area wall 5 within 10
Effect: You create a zone of swirling psychic energy in the area, which lasts until the end of your next turn. Enemies that enter or end their turn in the zone are dazed until the zone ends.


Just some thoughts. Maybe invokers create sanctuary zones or blind and deafen people with divine retribution, and psions can control the triggering creatures movement, or levitate the person in the air and hold them in place for a round.

 

[knightofround]

Yeah, that was certainly something that I've thought about when I was trying to think up my own martial controller.

The problem is balance. In one full round, everybody gets 1 standard, move, minor, and immediate action. You can turn standards into moves, and moves into minors, but you can't turn anything into another immediate action.

So right off the bat you need to design a class that either A. has stronger-than-average immediate powers (which is impossible to balance with hybrid/multiclassing), or you need to give the class the ability to turn a standard action into an extra immediate action.

The second is more plausible, but then you run into another problem. The very nature of reactions and interrupts depend upon your opponent doing something. If they don't fulfill the conditions of one of your triggers, you're toast, you wasted the round doing nothing. The only way to get around that is to make the triggers incredibly easy to trigger... "enemy within your sight moves", "enemy within your sight attacks"...and if you're going to have triggers as open as that, you might as well designed the power to be a regular standard action, and then just delayed until it became the target's turn.

I'm not saying that its impossible to do, but I think it would be a VERY tricky thing to balance what with the way immediate actions are right now. Not impossible, but not easy to pull off either.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Some of the MP and MP2 powers for warlords represent exactly what I think a martial controller should be.

Specifically there's a power (I can't remember the name of it) that creates a zone, and whenever a foe enters that zone, one party member can make a charge or basic attack against it as a free action.

So it's effectively the same as a zone that deals damage to foes who enter or start their turn there, but it relies on party members to do it.

A martial controller could be peppered with powers like that, creating areas of the battlefield that are tactically advantageous to their allies, discouraging foes from entering them.

 

[Kzach]

Without putting too much thought into it, my immediate gut reaction is that I really like it. Shouldn't just be interrupts though, reactions as well, and maybe even a class feature that allows multiple interrupts/reactions per turn.

The controller has definitely been a troublesome role to pin down for WotC and I really don't think they've nailed it with any of their attempts. This idea, however, could really pin the tail on the donkey, so to speak. I'm definitely going to have to give this some more thought.

 

[Angellis_ater]

Overall it seems as if this suggestion/idea is being received well. I think toning down the damage potential allows the class to have an at-will power.

For example

"Harrier Shot"
At-Will * Martial
Immediate Interrupt Ranged Weapon
Trigger: An enemy moves in your line of sight
Attack: Dex vs AC
Hit: Dex damage and the target is slowed until the start of your next turn.

Then give the class an encounter power

"Crippling Shot"
Encounter * Martial
Immediate Interrupt Ranged Weapon
Trigger: An enemy moves in your line of sight
Attack: Dex vs AC
Hit: 1[W]+Dex damage and the target is immobilized until the start of your next turn.

Invokers could create Sanctity Zones as an at-will and have a push effect as encounter.
Wizards could create difficult terrain as an at-will and have a wall effect as encounter.
Druids could knock prone as an at-will and affect terrain as encounter.
Psions could force 2 squares of movement as an at-will and force an attack as encounter.

You see where I am going with this. That way, each Controller has a steady way to interfere, can enhance it once per encounter and for the rest should rely on their powers.

 

[Kzach]

The combination of immediate interrupts/reactions and controlling status effects as riders is a very nice combination that definitely creates a defining concept that fits the controller role well.

The problem then, really, becomes, "What do I do on my turn?"

As a thought to that, you could have a class feature that allows a person to forgo their next turn in order to get an additional interrupt/reaction per round.

Also, you could use the multiple damage component that was the original idea behind the role for weak, but multiple damage dealing powers. Or maybe have some sort of multiple targeting powers that setup immediate reaction/interrupt powers.

 

[tyrlaan]

So right off the bat you need to design a class that either A. has stronger-than-average immediate powers (which is impossible to balance with hybrid/multiclassing), or you need to give the class the ability to turn a standard action into an extra immediate action.

The second is more plausible, but then you run into another problem. The very nature of reactions and interrupts depend upon your opponent doing something. If they don't fulfill the conditions of one of your triggers, you're toast, you wasted the round doing nothing. The only way to get around that is to make the triggers incredibly easy to trigger... "enemy within your sight moves", "enemy within your sight attacks"...and if you're going to have triggers as open as that, you might as well designed the power to be a regular standard action, and then just delayed until it became the target's turn.

Or you give the class powers that are bona fide standard actions and a class feature that lets them use a standard action class power as an immediate interrupt/reaction at the cost of losing his/her next standard action. (and perhaps feat options to reduce the "cost")

Heck, it could be slightly modeled off the generic healing class feature - usable twice per encounter and 3 times at 16th level. Different builds would tweak this feature to allow a different type of trigger or whatnot.

 

[Kzach]

Ok, so I've been doing some thinking on this and have come up with what I think may be a nice and workable concept that could really help define the controller role.

Here's a quick draft of the concept I whipped up:

Defining Characteristic
Every class has it’s defining characteristic, except for controllers. Defenders mark opponents and make them pay for ignoring them, strikers are accurate and do extra damage, leaders grant buffs and healing.

Controllers, however, are a very mixed bag with no real focus. Sure, you get lots of abilities which do as the definition of the role says, but so does every other class. There is nothing special about controllers which sets them apart.

So I’m introducing a concept independent of the classes which every controller can incorporate into their basic design. Like all the other roles, this concept can be implemented in lots of different ways, making each controller feel and play differently.

The Controller
The defining characteristic of these controllers manifests in two important ways. The first is that every controller has at least one type of immediate power and the second is that these immediate powers fall outside of the normal limitation of one immediate action per round.

How To Manual
These immediate powers act much like defender marks. I know, I know, they’re a pain, but bear with me, as I think you’ll like the end result and whatever solution you have that works with defender marks, will also work to help you keep track of these controller powers.

To differentiate them from marks as a term, I’m coining them here as ‘checks’. A controller places a ‘check’ on a target and depending on the conditions of the check, one of two eventualities will occur. Every controller class will have a different means of invoking these checks, but in essence they operate around a binary state. If the check is triggered, the secondary effect of the check comes into play, if the check isn’t triggered, the primary effect of the check happens.

As an example to clarify, let’s say that a class acts much like the fighter in that every target he attacks, has a check placed on it. The check remains on the targets until the end of the character’s next turn. In the case of this particular controller, the check has one of two functions. If a checked target attacks anyone, the controller can use his controller immediate action power on it. If the checked target doesn’t attack anyone, however, then he takes X points of damage.

This is only one example of how the check system can operate. It can operate around any number of triggers like movement, damage, saving throws, etc. The same goes for the immediate power related to the check. It could happen either on the yes or no trigger of the check condition. All this depends on the class’s variation of the check class feature.

Here is also a quick and dirty example of how one might alter an existing class (I chose the warlock 'cause I've always felt they'd make a better controller than striker). In this example it's assumed that the Warlock's Curse acts the same way as it currently does, minus the bonus damage. Instead, it places the 'checked' condition on the target, which then enables the caster to utilise one of their check-based immediate powers.

I've only included one check-based immediate power, and made it as a replacement for the second at-will power chosen by the pact (I figure warlocks can choose their second at-will like any normal class in addition to this feature).

It's important to remember that the check-power operates outside the normal limitation for immediate actions per turn.

Hex of Dark Foreboding Warlock Hex 1
Your curse acts as a damning aura, forcing the target to choose between sacrificing himself, or harming his allies.
At-Will • Arcane, Necrotic, Psychic
Immediate Reaction
Prerequisite: Dark Pact
Effect: When an enemy under your Warlock’s Curse is within 1 square of an ally, each ally reduces the amount of damage the target takes from this hex by 1 point (increase to 2 points at 11th-level, and 4 points at 21st-level). Each ally who reduces this damage on the target, takes the damage themselves.
Trigger: At the end of the target’s turn, the Dark Pact warlock whose Warlock’s Curse is upon it, can make an attack roll against the target.
Attack: Charisma or Constitution vs. Will
Hit: 1 necrotic and psychic damage to that enemy for each point of your Darkspiral Aura’s current value.
 At 11th level, the damage you deal increases to 2 per point of your Darkspiral Aura’s current value, and at 21st level the damage increases to 4 per point of your Darkspiral Aura’s current value.

 

[Angellis_ater]

The major problem I see with this is adding MORE counters, beans and whatever to the gaming board. There are already too many of these around (I just had a game with a Fighter, an Assassin, a Warlock and an Avenger... BEANS everywhere!) and I'd rather stay away from introducing more keywords into the game. We already have Curses, Marks, Oaths, Shrouds, Preys, Hunters Quarry and so on...

In that case I'd rather make it work like a Leader - "If an enemy within 5/10/15 makes a move that isn't a shift you can ..."