New Wild Shape

[Stalker0]

Things I want to keep about wild shape:

1. Druid tanking as a hit point sponge. It's a different way of tanking, it's an established role that some players clearly enjoy, and is not inherently OP. It just needs to be better tuned.

2. Druids being able to turn into a variety of weak animals to deal with different non-combat situations. Like a becoming a ferret to scoot down a drain, or a spider to crawl up a wall and eavesdrop, that kind of thing.

3. Some variety in combat options so the druid has some choices to make.

4. Druid is unable to speak while wild shaped. Look, players badly pantomiming is comedy gold at the table and I don't want to see it lost.

I don't see why all of that can't be accomplished with some generic template options.

And it seems like we could keep these through some small changes to spells:

1) Moon druids: Whenever the druid wildshapes they may immediate cast the barkskin spell on themselves. This use does not require concentration. Barkskin is always a prepared spell for them.

2) The Reduce/enlarge spell alters the creature size after wildshape (this isn't even a rules change, its just a specific interpretation of what can already be allowed with the new spell list).

This allows the druid to maintain some of the old strength but does require some spell slots to do it, so it balances the books a bit better.

 

[Weiley31]

Via this link, I feel like the post goes over like all the possible options you can wild shape into. What's really cool is that the poster went through the hassle of also getting some of the Adventure module exclusive options that can be used for your Wild Shaping. Some options are mentioned/listed from these sources which are ALSO Adventure League Legal/DM Guild Adept program.:

Xanathar's Lost Notes to Everything Else
-Example: Elder Dryad (okay not a wild shape form, but an upscaled option for Conjure Fey).

Beasts of The Jungle Rot
-Example: Brachiosaurus

Return of the Lizard King
-Example: Mutated Crocodile

Unleash Your Inner Beast: A Moon Druid Guide (5e)

Unleash Your Inner Beast: A Moon Druid Guide (v1.3) https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/blackbandos-homebrew/images/2/2e/Circle_of_the_summoner.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20171018133731 My guide to the other Druid Circles is available here. Table of Content: Post1: Introduction Post2...

forums.giantitp.com

I like this link a lot cuz it ALSO goes over various stuff such that all involves the Druid from equipment to even a Heavy Armor option (Petrified Mushroom) and where that can be found.

Note: YMMV if you have differing opinions on which Wild Shape form options are good or bad. Adventure League/DM Guild Adept also are in that grey area where your DM may or may not approve.

Now somebody has to do one for Kobold Press's stuff for more Druid Wild Shaping goodness.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Oh, oh wow. I didn't even catch this. Watching Treantmonk's video (don't always agree with him, but those are good videos to watch for challenging your own ideas of balance) and he pointed out something HUGE.

It says you lose all other abilities. This could include saving throw proficiencies, skill proficiencies, ect.

Now, this could be an interpretation thing. Because it says you lose access to Features, which may be a game term, but then I don't know what you call your proficiencies, and what if you multi-class and get a feature that gives you skill profs or saves? Or you take feats?

It is easy to just rule you get them, but phrasing can matter at many tables

 

[Zubatcarteira]

In OneD&D, the "Class features" part is after all the hit points/proficiency/armor training stuff, so they shouldn't count for that.

Edit: At least the ones granted by the base class.

 

[Clint_L]

And it seems like we could keep these through some small changes to spells:

1) Moon druids: Whenever the druid wildshapes they may immediate cast the barkskin spell on themselves. This use does not require concentration. Barkskin is always a prepared spell for them.

2) The Reduce/enlarge spell alters the creature size after wildshape (this isn't even a rules change, its just a specific interpretation of what can already be allowed with the new spell list).

This allows the druid to maintain some of the old strength but does require some spell slots to do it, so it balances the books a bit better.

We already mathed this out a few pages back. Barkskin isn't even close to enough to let druids function as an off-tank.

 

[Stalker0]

We already mathed this out a few pages back. Barkskin isn't even close to enough to let druids function as an off-tank.

My other idea in a separate thread was to give them regen X in wildshape. They wouldn’t be great initial tanks but could heal lots of damage

 

[mellored]

My other idea in a separate thread was to give them regen X in wildshape. They wouldn’t be great initial tanks but could heal lots of damage

Then after every battle, the druid would just regen to full. Not exactly a wild shape use that fills the fantasy.

Barkskin style THP could work if the number was higher. But you need to consider the low AC.

IMO, a bucket of THP at the start will keep it playing mostly the same. You transform, (*get some utility or special attack), absorb some ldamage, and go back to being a normal druid.

*the utility still needs to be added.

 

[Enrahim2]

So I think the core problem here is that with the current change there are no compelling mechanical reason to ever shapechange. Another thing that botheres me is that there are no mechanical effect related to what shape is chosen. A dog work is the same as a lion, work the same as an elephant.

Loading down the system with added complexity by essentialy adding a new seperate feat shopping list for traits the player can mix and match from keeps the versatility, but loses most of the simplification benefit. Making these traits match well with flavor is also tricky unless you reinterpret shape change to turning into a chimaera rather than animal.

I hence propose the following as a way to regain out of combat utility. It give a different kind of utility than 5ed, so it hence do not cater to the same playstyle - but it allows for usefulness and choice of form to matter without complicating the system:

Restore the duration to 5ed standard. The druid become able to communicate with beasts of their shape as if having cast speak with animals. Moreover they gain advantage on any social rolls involving beasts of their shape.

I think this is thematically strong, make sense, and is definitely an utility. It also would be very clearly distinct from other classes. It also lends well to the interpretation that you haven't actually turned fully to that animal, but rather just taken their shape; simplifying the explanation of how the true animals has different traits than the wild shape druid. Might this be sufficient to fix normal druids, so we are left with how to make moon druids combat capable in a way that don't make them just reskinned barbarians during combat?

 

[Chaosmancer]

I hence propose the following as a way to regain out of combat utility. It give a different kind of utility than 5ed, so it hence do not cater to the same playstyle - but it allows for usefulness and choice of form to matter without complicating the system:

Restore the duration to 5ed standard. The druid become able to communicate with beasts of their shape as if having cast speak with animals. Moreover they gain advantage on any social rolls involving beasts of their shape.

Disagree. Do you know the number of times I've needed to roll social checks against an animal? Zero. In ten something years of 5e DnD, it has never once come up. The only benefit to your version is advantage on social checks, and getting a spell that you could have just cast instead of wild shaping. And that just... isn't a thing that actually matters.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Disagree. Do you know the number of times I've needed to roll social checks against an animal? Zero. In ten something years of 5e DnD, it has never once come up. The only benefit to your version is advantage on social checks, and getting a spell that you could have just cast instead of wild shaping. And that just... isn't a thing that actually matters.

The first time I ever played a druid there was a conversation with wolves about "survival of the fittest" Vs the value of caring for the wounded. This was over 30 years ago.

 

[ehren37]

I dunno, that seems like a pretty good deal. Not a good analogy. What if you had a barbarian subclass where they could no longer fight at all but in exchange got to be a mediocre caster?

Because outside of levels 2-4 and 17-20, a moon Druid is a mediocre fighter. They can tank okay just through having tons of HP but their hit rolls and damage really lag along with their AC. Outside of combat their spell casting is…well, vanilla Druid. Their advantage is flexibility.

Not a subclass. A stance or a round by round option that can be dropped whenever. It's not like moon druid lost their casting permanently.

If you want to do co-opt another class's reason for existing, you should at least have to burn some spell slots.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Disagree. Do you know the number of times I've needed to roll social checks against an animal? Zero. In ten something years of 5e DnD, it has never once come up. The only benefit to your version is advantage on social checks, and getting a spell that you could have just cast instead of wild shaping. And that just... isn't a thing that actually matters.

That sort of thing comes up all the time in my regular group. So…diff’rent strokes, I guess.

 

[ehren37]

So I think the core problem here is that with the current change there are no compelling mechanical reason to ever shapechange. Another thing that botheres me is that there are no mechanical effect related to what shape is chosen. A dog work is the same as a lion, work the same as an elephant.

Essentially on demand allowing you to sub Wis for Dex or Strength is useful in exploration. It's not like barbarians get "Brawn over Brains" that let them sub Strength for Wisdom or Intelligence. Apes can use tools/armor/weapons. So a low level druid in Ape form gets to rock a 18+ Strength and Dex, stats that the non-casters had to invest actual real resources in. Toss on a spare suit of studded leather and pick your shield back up and the druid has an 18 AC. Clearly they need an extra 40 temp hp at level 3 on top of that!

People keep bringing up Shillelagh, but that doesnt let you use your Wisdom to shove, grapple, break stuff etc on top of improving your Dexterity save, stealth, initiative, acrobatics, etc.

You can also change your size and physically assume animal form, which has tons of uses other than just pure hack and slash. Unless your DM has NPC's randomly attack every animal they come across its a great way to blend in.

 

[mellored]

Apes can use tools/armor/weapons.

That sounds like a house rule to me.

Or does every druid need to Wildshape into an Ape?

Edit: also, it takes a while to put on armor.

 

[Clint_L]

Yeah, I'm feeling more and more like trying to make the generic template concept work by adding more features to it (i.e. more complexity) is putting lipstick on a pig. The fundamental premise might just be bad. I am usually a fan of simplicity, but maybe this is a situation where the complexity of being able to assume different animals shapes, with all their strengths and weaknesses, is where the fun is.

Ultimately, I think the current version of druid has one definite problem and one possible problem.

The definite problem is that moon druid is OP at low levels, which is where most games are played. This can make other players resentful ("I thought I was the tank, but apparently this other character, who is also a spell caster, is the tank. As well as the scout."). And it makes most people who play druid want to play moon druid, because why wouldn't you want to be the star almost right out of the gate? And it makes combat hard to balance for DMs, since to make an encounter threatening to the moon druid it becomes lethal to almost everyone else (i.e. the wizard who, at level 2, has 10 HP compared to the moon druids 81 effective HP).

So moon druids are a definite problem and need to be better tuned, especially before level 5.

The possible problem is that maybe the class is too complex and this is making them an unpopular choice. But I'm not so sure that this is actually the case. It might be the case but have we got anything besides speculation to go on? I kind of feel that the game needs complicated classes as well as simple classes. There are some players who really enjoy getting out their monster manual and making lists of all the different animal options that might be useful in different situations. And as a DM, I think it is pretty fun when the druid comes up with an unexpected animal choice.

So, going back to where we started...how much of this could be solved by simply removing this ability from Circle Forms for moon druids: "The rites of your circle grant you the ability to transform into more dangerous animal forms. Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Wild Shape to transform into a beast with a challenge rating as high as 1 (you ignore the Max. CR column of the Beast Shapes table, but must abide by the other limitations there)"? Why not just keep the part that they get at level 6, where they can transform into an animal of up to 1/3 their level?

That would get rid of the problem of moon druids being OP tanks at low levels, and I don't think anyone finds that ability to be unbalanced at level 6, when main tanks already have their extra attacks and a chonky amount of HP themselves.

 

[Stalker0]

Disagree. Do you know the number of times I've needed to roll social checks against an animal? Zero. In ten something years of 5e DnD, it has never once come up. The only benefit to your version is advantage on social checks, and getting a spell that you could have just cast instead of wild shaping. And that just... isn't a thing that actually matters.

And in my current game one character talks to every animal they come across, even seeking out ones for info.

Different strokes for different folks mate.

 

[mellored]

The definite problem is that moon druid is OP at low levels,

The definite problem is the CR of the bear. Not just for wild shape, but for DMs using it, or for summons.

And if there is ever any other OP beast that shows up, it can also become an issue.

 

[DarkCrisis]

I like it. Although, I hate that Druid is just the shapeshifting class now. Eventually being able to level up enough to shapeshift was something that felt good to earn. Now like everything else, it's all just served to you asap.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The first time I ever played a druid there was a conversation with wolves about "survival of the fittest" Vs the value of caring for the wounded. This was over 30 years ago.

Okay? And did you need to roll social checks for that, or did you mostly just RP?

Because in my expeirence it is all just RP, because the DM doesn't plan on you talking to the animals.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That sort of thing comes up all the time in my regular group. So…diff’rent strokes, I guess.

I can't imagine it, honestly, what kind of persuasion checks are you making that you couldn't do just as easily with some treats and animal handling?

Remember, the idea is to give advantage on intimidation, persuasion, and deception in exchange for wildshaping. Most animals we don't need to deceive or persuade. Intimidate sure, but we don't cast Speak with Animals to do that.