LuisCarlos17f
Legend
Can they use tools and weapons in their wild shapes thanks opposible dumbs? For example to reload a crossbow.
New Wild Shape
- Thread starter Neonchameleon
- Start date
UngeheuerLich
Legend
My experience at low to mid levels... That much extra hp was too much. Proved to be annoying.
mellored
Legend
Because casting cure wound in wild shape (14 AC) is worse than casting cure wound in normal form (18 AC) and hitting with shillelagh.
Being able to healing word an ally is nice, but I wouldn't expect to use it more than that, nor was it in the previous version.
Transmutation (self only) would makes more sense IMO.
Jump, long strider, water breathing, enlarge/reduce, barkskin, enhance ability, elemental weapon, ect...
Hmm... if they added a few more transmutation spells, like frogs swallow, panthers pounce, snakes reach, that would be pretty fun. Probably auto success on concentration checks for those too...
mellored
Legend
Refined suggestion.
Keep the stat block as is.
Add +5 THP per level
When you wild shape, you may cast a transmutation spell on yourself. Spells cast this way don't require concentration checks when damaged, though your form changes to reflect the spell. For instance, if you cast jump, you might get the legs of a frog.
Add extra transmutation spells on the primal list.
-panthers pounce
-frogs swallow
-snakes reach
-vipers venom
-wolf pack tactic
...etc
Moon druid 3: as a bonus action.
Moon druid 6: your transmutation spell doesn't take a slot.
Moon druid 10: you can have 2 transmutation at once. The second one takes a spell slot.
Moon druid 14: you can have 3 transmutation at once. You spend a spell slot on the highest level one.
Keep the stat block as is.
Add +5 THP per level
When you wild shape, you may cast a transmutation spell on yourself. Spells cast this way don't require concentration checks when damaged, though your form changes to reflect the spell. For instance, if you cast jump, you might get the legs of a frog.
Add extra transmutation spells on the primal list.
-panthers pounce
-frogs swallow
-snakes reach
-vipers venom
-wolf pack tactic
...etc
Moon druid 3: as a bonus action.
Moon druid 6: your transmutation spell doesn't take a slot.
Moon druid 10: you can have 2 transmutation at once. The second one takes a spell slot.
Moon druid 14: you can have 3 transmutation at once. You spend a spell slot on the highest level one.
mellored
Legend
Increase the bears CR rating.
It solves most of the issues.
Bill Zebub
“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
My experience with druids (only playing with them; I've yet to actually play one myself) is that the HP pool from shifting is one of the most powerful defensive abilities in the game. Even for non-moon druids it's really, really good.
Bill Zebub
“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Mine would be:
+THP (we can quibble about the number)
Moon:
3rd: Pick two two "enhancements" from a list, like invocations (some have level requirements). When you shift you get those enhancements.
Every level 4+: swap one enhancement for another
6th, 10th, 14th: gain another enhancement. (Plus maybe other goodies.)
Clint_L
Hero
Why not let them choose enhancements every time they shift? The flexibility is a core part of the fun.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Ok.
But then the problems of forcing players to look through DM resources... and needing system mastery... and being dependend on DM fiat (which I also have experienced)...
Templates as the default are better. Maybe then have an optional rule to replace the generic blocks with specific animal stat blocks you have encountered. And Still I would replace the animal HP with THP and the animal attacks with beast strike...
Clint_L
Hero
Things I want to keep about wild shape:
1. Druid tanking as a hit point sponge. It's a different way of tanking, it's an established role that some players clearly enjoy, and is not inherently OP. It just needs to be better tuned.
2. Druids being able to turn into a variety of weak animals to deal with different non-combat situations. Like a becoming a ferret to scoot down a drain, or a spider to crawl up a wall and eavesdrop, that kind of thing.
3. Some variety in combat options so the druid has some choices to make.
4. Druid is unable to speak while wild shaped. Look, players badly pantomiming is comedy gold at the table and I don't want to see it lost.
I don't see why all of that can't be accomplished with some generic template options.
1. Druid tanking as a hit point sponge. It's a different way of tanking, it's an established role that some players clearly enjoy, and is not inherently OP. It just needs to be better tuned.
2. Druids being able to turn into a variety of weak animals to deal with different non-combat situations. Like a becoming a ferret to scoot down a drain, or a spider to crawl up a wall and eavesdrop, that kind of thing.
3. Some variety in combat options so the druid has some choices to make.
4. Druid is unable to speak while wild shaped. Look, players badly pantomiming is comedy gold at the table and I don't want to see it lost.
I don't see why all of that can't be accomplished with some generic template options.
Bill Zebub
“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
I dunno. Why not let Battlemasters have the whole list of maneuvers, or Sorcerers have every metamagic option, or Warlocks every Imvocation?
Whatever the answer is, it’s probably the same here. And if you think the answer is “there isn’t a good reason” then that’s something you’ll have to take up with WotC.
(My personal answer in this case is partly about power, partly about decision complexity…although more because of 5e’s positioning in the market and not as much about my own preference…but mostly because I like the idea that each Druid has their own, iconic form, and aren’t just Swiss Army knives.)
mellored
Legend
I agree.
But for the 2014 version, just changing the bear CR makes druids a lot more balanced.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
My adhoc solutions would have been:
moon druid is druid level/3, round down to the nearest 1/2 CR... this makes level 2 more balanced.
Then I figured, that I wanted half the damage done to the animal form to carry through to the druid...
So maybe, just giving resistance to all damage would be my preferred solution for wildshaping druids. Maybe resistance to p/s/b for all druids and everything except psychic damage for moon druids. That would nicely mirror the barbarian rage.
mellored
Legend
If it's a spell, you'd need to prepare it.
Also, if it's a spell, land druids could give fighters snake arms. Or give the rogue wolf pact tactics. Or turn the barbarian into a fire elemental.
What if regular druids have their own iconic form, but moon druids can go full form manipulation?
Chaosmancer
Legend
Actually, as a person who played a Dream Druid, I disagree. Wildshape had massive utility outside of combat, and since it was an action to transform, it was rarely used in combat. It had two major points though.
1) Becoming tiny to scout was AMAZING. It gave the Druid a lot of flexibility and fun, flavorful things they could do. I particularly enjoyed becoming a spider to fit through cracks and sneak ahead, or becoming a giant snake to move through the swamp. I once became a Jaguar to hunt a scent as well.
2) You could (at a point) become Large, and that had some limited utility as well. I had a player who became a horse and was able to carry an unconcious party member.
Now? The Large utility still exists, but the major use I had for Wildshape is gone. You can still bloodhound with it, but you can't use it to scout ahead. The smallest you can be is small, which is a normal dog size or a baboon. Looking at the MM list? Most animals were tiny, cats, badgers, snakes, hawks, lizards. By moving tiny to 11th and cutting it down to 10 minutes, they've gutted the biggest and most common use for the ability.
The problem for me is that we keep trying to make it a combat ability. It is for Moon druids, but for every single other type of Druid, Wildshape was not a good combat move. Because of the Action economy. But now? Now they are forcing it to be a combat tool, because of the level 5 multi-attack. But they are still making it an action.
And that will never work. Just look at the Devotion Paladin, they changed the blessed weapon channel divinity because no one used an action at the start of combat to activate it. Rage would be terrible if it took an action to activate. Ect Ect ECt.
Additionally, my Dream Druid did end up fighthing in Giant Snake form... and I really found myself wishing the enemy would go ahead and knock me out of it so I could be more effective. I'd gone from 18 AC to 12 AC, from dealing 13 damage at-will to 5 damage at-will, from a +7 to hit, to a +4 to hit. In every conceivable way, it was worse than just being myself. But I didn't want to waste the wildshape until it was used up, because hey, 13 extra hp was decent. But the enemy didn't even bother attacking me, because I wasn't enough of a threat to warrant attacking.
Treating Wildshape like a combat option is, I think, a mistake. Unless you are willing to make the Moon Druid's bonus action shift universal.
Also, side note, your suggesting for Temp HP MAXES at 9, and knocks them out of the shape when they lose it? You do realize that if you want a 12th level Druid to use wildshape in combat, you are asking them to use their action to gain 9 temp hp, lose their AC, and then basically immediately lose the form when they get hit because NOTHING at that level is going to hit them for less than 9 damage. It is an utter waste of time,
Chaosmancer
Legend
I'm not sure the intent you are going for here, but I do want to note. Any ability to cast spells in beast shape does not confer more value to the ability to take beast shape. Because you can still cast those spells outside of beast shape. Every cure wounds the Druid casts while transformed could have more easily been cast while not transformed. This is why I'm really not super concerned with measuring the spell power in Beast Shape, because it doesn't balance it.
Ah, I get your intent. Yeah, I don't think the scaling for these current beast shapes work, but I'm almost more concerned about making sure the ability works for Non-Moon druids than worrying about Moon Druids, because Moon Druids are an easier fix.
Chaosmancer
Legend
I can 100% agree that the generic statblock templates are a good move. In fact, if you just told me that in a vacuum you could choose a template and a size, and flavor the rest? I'd be incredibly happy with that change.
But Non-Moon Druids cannot effectively use Wild Shape in combat as long as it costs an action. Even if they wanted to, it could be incredibly easy to point out that the vast majority of a Druid's most useful things are concentration action spells they cast at the start of combat. Would you rather lose AC and maybe gain some temp hp as an action... or grant every single ally advantage on every single attack against multiple enemies? Or restrain multiple enemies so that they cannot effectively fight your allies? Or summon a swarm of allies to support your team in combat?
So, you start by casting a spell as your action, then your second action would be to wild shape? Which means you aren't using the wildshape in combat until Round 3? That's far too slow. But they are also incentivizing exactly that, because at level 5 you get multi-attack, for all druids, in wildshape. Which tells them they should be using their turn to transform.
Moon druids using wildshape in combat? Okay, we can balance that. But normal druids? It doesn't work, unless we make all wildshapes a bonus action. Which means that for Normal Druids, we should be looking at Wildshape as a utility ability, and that highlights how utterly it fails in the role.
Clint_L
Hero
Non-moon druids shouldn't be using wild shape as a combat option outside of unusual circumstances, in which cases sacrificing an action plus concentration might be the choice you have to make. For them, wild shape should continue to be primarily an exploration/problem-solving tool, IMO. That's why I think it needs to keep options like tiny size, spider climb, etc. at low levels. It's fun and unique.
As to the question posed above, "I dunno. Why not let Battlemasters have the whole list of maneuvers, or Sorcerers have every metamagic option, or Warlocks every Imvocation?" Because they're not druids. The flexibility of wild shape has been an established part of the class for all of 5e (and prior to 5e) for that matter. Why not let druids have maneuvers or invocations?
As to the question posed above, "I dunno. Why not let Battlemasters have the whole list of maneuvers, or Sorcerers have every metamagic option, or Warlocks every Imvocation?" Because they're not druids. The flexibility of wild shape has been an established part of the class for all of 5e (and prior to 5e) for that matter. Why not let druids have maneuvers or invocations?
Chaosmancer
Legend
For Moon Druids, I agree. I don't think I want this for all druids, as it works very poorly with the established action economy
For all druids, I agree
Maybe. I don't mind Moon Druids focusing on shapeshifting for combat, and normal druids focusing on either spells or weapons for combat. They have options as it stands, all of the options are just... mediocre. (Why are druid ranged cantrips worse than everyone except bards? Why does Shillelagh scale so poorly when Clerics get improved melee options?
So, I want them to have more variety, but I want to support the same variety that other classes get in their options, while having Moon Druids shapeshift and maul.
Nope, this is a good change. Sure, it could be comedic, but it also could get very frustrating and often felt like you needed a person who could cast Speak with Animals to participate in the discussion and then you are playing telephone where you can only talk to one other character who has to explain what you said to the others.
I'm fine giving up 10 minutes of charades for ease of character concepts. Besides, there is also comedy in "wait, did that squirrel just talk?!" so it isn't like you can't still find humor in the game.
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