D&D (2024) New Wild Shape

[billd91]

I normally agree with a lot you say, but just no. Barbarians have 2 more HP/level and no spells. Fighters have 1 more HP/level.

Except it is more complex than that - and in the barbarian's and fighter's favor. The barbarian's ability to take hit point damage from most sources doubles while raging, so +2 hp/level isn't quite the right factor. And the fighter's going to have a much better AC than the druid under the wildshape, probably negating about 20-25% of the hits he'd be taking compared to the druid (depending on form).
So the druid needs something more than their own hit points as a wildshaped combatant. Maybe it's not 5x or quite what they had in 5e's version of wildshape, but stuck with their own hit points and low AC isn't right.

 

[mellored]

How about taking the Toughness feat, buffing with spells, and buying combat wildshape focused magic items?

Toughness doesn't last long with such low AC.

You don't get to choose magic items in 5e.

Buffing spells take concentration, and your getting hit a lot with such a low AC, it won't last.

 

[Bolares]

Wild shape grants a 1d8+wisdom damage attack.

So does a cantrip

 

[mellored]

The problem is the drop in AC that’s what harms this Druid in combat. The ability should give the Druid AC 10 + Wis bonus + Dex bonus. Plus any magic improvements to AC.

I would rather keep the extra THP than keep the AC.

It's different, and makes Druids better againt spells and elemental blasts than against foes with weapons.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Toughness doesn't last long with such low AC.

You don't get to choose magic items in 5e.

Buffing spells take concentration, and your getting hit a lot with such a low AC, it won't last.

That's what the spells/items are for. Not all buffs require concentration. Seems like a good time to rethink that "no buying magic items" thing then as well.

Current Wildshape would be cool if fighters/barbarians got a little side ability that gave them full 9 level casting 4 times a day, but somehow I don't think that would fly...

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Except it is more complex than that - and in the barbarian's and fighter's favor. The barbarian's ability to take hit point damage from most sources doubles while raging, so +2 hp/level isn't quite the right factor. And the fighter's going to have a much better AC than the druid under the wildshape, probably negating about 20-25% of the hits he'd be taking compared to the druid (depending on form).
So the druid needs something more than their own hit points as a wildshaped combatant. Maybe it's not 5x or quite what they had in 5e's version of wildshape, but stuck with their own hit points and low AC isn't right.

They have 9 levels of spells. They SHOULDNT be able to tank. Call me when they're a half caster.

 

[Enrahim2]

It is the traditional flavour of druids in RPGs, and I don't see it as a barbarian thing at all. I don't think the change will go through as currently framed, since it is already receiving heavy criticism. And I don't think it is at all fair to tell players that the way they have played their character for years would require them to re-roll as a totally different class.

The numbers need massaging at low levels, but the basic play style of druid tanking is fun and unique, and should not be removed from the game.

In AD&D 2ed shape change wasn't unlocked before level 7. In 3.5 it didn't unlock before level 5. In 4ed it unlocked at 1st level, but didn't give any significant boosts beyond being a requisite for using certain not very strong powers.

Moreover in 2ed you healed 10-60% of your damage when shapechanging, in 3ed you got your level hp back and in 4ed there was no healing involved. In other words it appear to me like when it comes to D&D, druid tanking is a pure 5ed phenomenom. It also appear to be a WoW phenomenom, but that hardly seem enough to call this "the traditional flavor in rpgs"?

And what is it with the play style of druid tanking that make it fun and unique, that you wouldn't have gotten from a barbarian based wildshaper?

 

[billd91]

They have 9 levels of spells. Call me when they're a half caster.

That they can't use while wildshaping.
I accept that the ability to wildshape and be a full spell caster gives druids a lot of potential flexibility. But all that flexibility is still channeled through one set of actions at any one time. So bringing up that they're spell casters in discussions about the power of wildshape isn't quite the same topic.
I've found it pretty unusual for a druid to be making the most of wildshaping and being a full spell caster at the same time.

 

[mellored]

Current Wildshape would be cool if fighters/barbarians got a little side ability that gave them full 9 level casting 4 times a day, but somehow I don't think that would fly...

Current wildshape needs a nerf, yes. At least at lower levels (i.e. the bear), though if you tried mammoth at higher level, your mostly a punching bag, always getting hit and dealing very little back.

But in the playtest you're just getting -5 to AC...

 

[Clint_L]

Except it is more complex than that - and in the barbarian's and fighter's favor. The barbarian's ability to take hit point damage from most sources doubles while raging, so +2 hp/level isn't quite the right factor. And the fighter's going to have a much better AC than the druid under the wildshape, probably negating about 20-25% of the hits he'd be taking compared to the druid (depending on form).
So the druid needs something more than their own hit points as a wildshaped combatant. Maybe it's not 5x or quite what they had in 5e's version of wildshape, but stuck with their own hit points and low AC isn't right.

A level 1 barbarian is going to likely have AC 13 or better, 13-14 HP, and take half damage from melee combat. A level 1 fighter/paladin tank is going to have AC 18 (chain plus shield), and 12-13 HP. Under the UA, a level 1 druid tank is likely to have AC 13 and 9-10 HP.

In comparison to the barbarian, that druid will get hit at least as often and be able to last about a third as long in melee. The fighter/paladin will get hit far less often and will have slightly more HP. A tank cleric could also have the high AC and self heals, with the same HP as the druid.

Under this change, the druid is not a viable tank any longer. Not remotely - you might just as well put a Warlock or Rogue on the front line for all the difference it will make.

Obviously, moon druid tanking is currently OP at low levels, specifically levels 2-4. Beyond that, they are more used as off-tanks, not primary tanks. So we are have taken a sledgehammer to them to fix a 3 level problem. There has to be a better solution.