D&D (2024) New Wild Shape

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
I mean that sort of detail might make sense in a game about humanoids fighting humanoids in a pseudo-medieval fantasy world. What makes bringing in much of the subtleties of real world fighting technique a terrible fit for D&D is that neither the Venetian school or the Neapolitan school have much to say about fighting dragons.
I mean, that's true, but I don't think the analogy is completely wrong; why have such nuance about the magic system, when most of the combat system is "I swing and do damage"?

It would be nice to see a game where warriors expound upon the virtues of a basket hilt vs. a two-handed weapon, or the advantages of the bastard sword over a greatsword, or even how their Toledo Salamanca matches up to the opponent's Masamune...
 

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I mean, that's true, but I don't think the analogy is completely wrong; why have such nuance about the magic system, when most of the combat system is "I swing and do damage"?
A lot of it has to do with the fact that magic has license to follow completely arbitrary rules, whereas anything purporting to be actual martial combat is expected to at least have some sliver of grounding in how people think historical combat worked. Magic can also be more readily limited to things only the caster of that spell can do using the spell slot, whereas giving a martial character the ability to, say, make a lunging attack three times per day begs the question as to why everyone else can't do that thing and why the one guy can only do it three times per day.

Designers get to be a lot more creatively uninhibited in their approach to magic, and can also limit things for game balance reasons without any bit of real world justification. Yes you absolutely can create mundane fighting moves that work more like spells, but they much more readily beg questions about the arbitrary game limitations you impose on them, and require a least a little explanation as to why they work. Adding a spell to the game called "Create Mayonnaise" that shoots condiments in an opponents eyes, but can also be used to dress a sandwich, is absurd, but it is not as absurd as trying to achieve the same dual purposes with a sword maneuver, which people would expect one heck of an explanation for.

I don't like that situation, but I'm fairly confident it's the driving reason why 5e ended up being almost all magic for almost everything almost all the time.
 

mellored

Legend
It would be nice to see a game where warriors expound upon the virtues of a basket hilt vs. a two-handed weapon, or the advantages of the bastard sword over a greatsword, or even how their Toledo Salamanca matches up to the opponent's Masamune...
I doubt it will go that far, but...

The upcoming article on Warrior classes will introduce new weapon options. Those options will differentiate weapons from each other more clearly. For example, the Shortsword (Simple) and the Scimitar (Martial) will have different roles to play in the game.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
I doubt it will go that far, but...

The upcoming article on Warrior classes will introduce new weapon options. Those options will differentiate weapons from each other more clearly. For example, the Shortsword (Simple) and the Scimitar (Martial) will have different roles to play in the game.
It would be nice to make weapon choices really matter in 5e; there are several weapons that are functionally identical. Though my real argument is still more "why are we ok with abstract, simple weapons, but we can't just chuck V,S,M components into the bin".

Benjamin Olson's reply is probably the correct one, however. Because magic does cool stuff that can "break the rules", and melee combat is pretty much guys swinging hunks of metal at each other until someone falls down.
 

mellored

Legend
Though my real argument is still more "why are we ok with abstract, simple weapons, but we can't just chuck V,S,M components into the bin".
V; casting breaks stealth, same as weapon users
S; casting takes up a hand slot, same as weapon users
M: You can have your attacks taken away from you, same as weapon users.

Those are game balance things.

But I do agree that weapon users need more stuff. Though at least grapple and trip seem like good options now.
 

Stalker0

Legend
If that were a requirement for posting in this forum there would be nothing but OGL threads.

:-/
we do have to respect though that backwards combability is tieing hands. Sure we can tweak a feature, but there is no way the "backwards compatible" druid is going to be a spell-less shapeshifter. So trying to debate what that would look like or its balance or its appeal is 100% pointless for One dnd discussion.

I think that sucks myself, I do think the backwards combability throws out tons of creative options they could consider....but it is what it is.
 

mellored

Legend
we do have to respect though that backwards combability is tieing hands. Sure we can tweak a feature, but there is no way the "backwards compatible" druid is going to be a spell-less shapeshifter. So trying to debate what that would look like or its balance or its appeal is 100% pointless for One dnd discussion.

I think that sucks myself, I do think the backwards combability throws out tons of creative options they could consider....but it is what it is.
Nothing prevents them from creating another class later on.

I wouldn't put a lot of hope on it, but the artificer did happen, eventually.
 

Here's an attempt at a rewritten Wild Shape. It certainly needs more refinement, but I think it's in decent shape to experiment with.

Spoilered for length.

Wild Shape: You may shift into a beastial creature — a beast, or a monstrosity at least partially based on a beast, or more exotic forms for certain templates — as an action. You may end the use of Wild Shape as a bonus action. This form uses characteristics based on one of the templates provided.

Templates​

Your basic attributes while in Wild Shape form as the same as your character's attributes, except where noted.

Each template's hit points are Template Hit Points (TpHP), which are effectively temporary hit points that only refresh after a long rest. Losing all TpHP drops you out of that template form, and excess damage carries over to your base HP. You can change into a form using a template with exhausted TpHP, but you will be using your base form's HP from that point on. Falling to 0 HP also drops you out of a template form.

(Alternatively: Rather than a separate pool per template, there is a single TpHP pool for all templates aside from Tiny, which has its own pool.)

Tiny
You may transform into a tiny creature, such as a cat, mouse, or raven.

Your Dexterity score is equal to your Wisdom score.
Your Strength score is equal to half your Wisdom score.
Your Hit Points are equal to your Druid level.
Your base damage rating is 1. This is not modified by either your Strength or your Dexterity.

Note that you cannot fly without taking the Flight augment. The cost for the Flight augment is reduced by 1 for creatures that can normally fly, such as birds.

Mount
You may transform into a medium or large creature that is capable of carrying other creatures safely, such as a pony, horse, or ox.

Your Strength score is equal to your Wisdom score.
Your Hit Points are equal to 10x your Proficiency Bonus.
Your walking speed is 50.
Your base damage rating is 1d6

Circle of the Moon unlocks huge mounts.

Predator
You may transform into a medium creature that's built for hunting, such as a panther, snake, or spider.

Your Strength score is equal to your Wisdom score.
Your Hit Points are equal to 10x your Proficiency Bonus.
Your walking speed is 40.
Your base damage rating is 2d4

Circle of the Moon unlocks large predators. Large predators have a base damage of 1d10 for their first attack each turn, and automatically gain multiattack at level 5.

Elemental
You may transform into a large elemental — either fire, earth, water, or air. Unlocked with Circle of ???.

Your Strength score is equal to your Wisdom score.
Your Hit Points are equal to 10x your Proficiency Bonus.
You are resistant to non-magical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.
Your attacks do damage appropriate to your elemental form.
Your base damage rating is 2d4

Plant
You may transform into a plant form. Unlocked with Circle of the Spore.

Your Strength score is equal to your Wisdom score.
Your Hit Points are equal to 10x your Proficiency Bonus.
Your walking speed is 10.
Your reach is 10'. This increases by 5' at druid levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. (Will end up with a 30' reach at level 20. This balances against their low move speed.)
You are resistant to non-magical bludgeoning damage.
Your base damage rating is 2d4


Augments​

Primal Pool: You have a pool of inner strength (primal points) that can be used to empower and augment your Wild Shape. Your pool starts with a number of primal points equal to your proficiency bonus. You may also drain power from your spell slots into your primal pool, gaining 1 primal point for every spell slot level consumed. Your Primal Pool points are restored after a long rest.

Primal Augments: Your primal points may be spent as part of your use of Wild Shape to add traits to the form you are shifting into (aside from your original form). You may not spend more points for a given Wild Shape than your current Proficiency Bonus.

1 point augments:
  • Armored: You add your Proficiency Bonus to your AC.
  • Keen Senses: You have advantage on perception checks against one sense (your choice), or gain tremorsense. At level 10, you may instead choose to gain blindsense. Also, gain darkvision to 60'.
  • Swift: Your movement speed increases by +10, and your jump distance increases by 20. You have advantage on initiative checks.
  • Trample/Pounce/Charge: If you move 20 feet in a straight line before attacking a target, the target must save or be knocked prone. If it is knocked prone, you may use a bonus action to make an additional attack.
  • Multiattack: You may attack twice per round. Must be at least level 5, and use a template other than Tiny or Mount.
  • Pack Tactics: You have advantage on attack rolls if at least one active ally is within 5' of the target creature.
  • Stealth: You have advantage on stealth checks, and gain a climb speed equal to your walking speed.
  • Overgrowth: You may use an action to designate the area within your reach as difficult terrain, as long as you do not move. Must be using the Plant template.
2 point augments:
  • Aquatic: You can breathe underwater. Gain a swim speed of 40. You must be at least level 4.
  • Flight: You gain a fly speed of 50. You must be at least level 5 for a tiny creature. You must be at least level 7 for a small, medium, or large creature. You must be at least level 9 for a huge or larger creature.
  • Fear: Requires an attack (magic?) action. Cause fear in all creatures within 30' of you until the end of your next turn. Wis save vs your spell save DC.
  • Grapple/Constrict: Requires an attack action. If you hit a creature with this attack, do your standard damage, and the creature is grappled and restrained until it succeeds on an escape check. You may not grapple more than one creature at a time.
  • Spider Climb: Gain a climb speed equal to your walking speed. Can move on difficult surfaces, including upside down or through webs.
  • Venomous: When you hit a creature with an attack, it must make a Con save or take an additional 1d8 damage and be poisoned until the end of your next turn.
  • Web: Requires an attack action. Make a ranged weapon attack (range: 30'/60'). On a hit, the target is restrained. The target may use an action to escape via a Str check.
  • Spores: You may use an action to release spores within your reach. Creatures within your reach must make a Con save or be [poisoned or slept; possibly other conditions] until the end of your next turn. Must be using the Plant template.
 
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mellored

Legend
Each template's hit points are Template Hit Points (TpHP), which are effectively temporary hit points that only refresh after a long rest. Losing all TpHP drops you out of that template form, and excess damage carries over to your base HP. You can change into a form using a template with exhausted TpHP, but you will be using your base form's HP from that point on. Falling to 0 HP also drops you out of a template form.
Can't say I see enough of a difference between temporary bit points and TpHP to make it worth the distinction.
Note that you cannot fly without taking the Flight augment.
IMO,
Augments should be physically capable for the creature you chose to wild shape into. For instance, you can not take the fly augment as a regular mouse. And a mouse with wings would stand out.
You may also drain power from your spell slots into your primal pool, gaining 1 primal point for every spell slot level consumed.
This is a cool idea.
 

Can't say I see enough of a difference between temporary bit points and TpHP to make it worth the distinction.
I wasn't sure how it should interact with normal temp hit points, so I kept it separate for the time being. For example, if you have temp HP on the main character, and wildshape, what happens to those temp HP? Do you get them back when you shift back? Do they stack with the Wild Shape HP? Would the Wild Shape HP override them (ie: pick which source of temp HP you want to keep, per the PHB)? Can you get temp HP while Wild Shaped?

The current 5E version gives you "real" hit points when you shift, which means they'd combine with temp HP, and they can also be healed. If template HP were temp HP, they couldn't be healed. Should that be how it's handled? Since I got rid of the limits on use of Wild Shape per day, that's the main possible avenue of an overpowered mechanic. Meanwhile, the playtest is getting rid of the Wild Shape's HP entirely.

Anyway, there were enough questions about how to handle it that I kept it a unique stat for the time being. I'm inclined to think they will likely end up as pure temp HP, though.

IMO,
Augments should be physically capable for the creature you chose to wild shape into. For instance, you can not take the fly augment as a regular mouse. And a mouse with wings would stand out.
This might be worthwhile as a clarification. I was considering something like horse + flight = pegasus. But it would be more like, if you want a flying horse, it has to start as a pegasus or hippogryph or something, and then you can take the appropriate augment.

Will have to see how that would work with the other augments.

This is a cool idea.
Yep. You start with enough points to fully augment one Wild Shape. That is, you start with Proficiency Bonus points, and can spend up to PB points on one Wild Shape. Anything after that has to draw from spell slot points.

It feels like a decent balance between focusing on shapeshifting and focusing on spellcasting.
 

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