GMforPowergamers
Legend
yeah I don't get why the HP buffer went away... especially when you have preset stats you could just give each form a number of hp
New Wild Shape
- Thread starter Neonchameleon
- Start date
mellored
Hero
Suggestion: allow tiny scouting, but not automatic succeed at it.
When spotted by another creature, you can make a Wisdom (Nature) check against their passive insight. If you succeed, they assume you are a normal animal and will generally pay you no mind, allowing you to sneak past or scout.
Unnatrial behavior that brings attention to yourself, such a mouse grabbing a key, will instantly cause alarm. And cooks may still chase a mouse out of a kitchen.
Also, druids should have expertise in nature.
When spotted by another creature, you can make a Wisdom (Nature) check against their passive insight. If you succeed, they assume you are a normal animal and will generally pay you no mind, allowing you to sneak past or scout.
Unnatrial behavior that brings attention to yourself, such a mouse grabbing a key, will instantly cause alarm. And cooks may still chase a mouse out of a kitchen.
Also, druids should have expertise in nature.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
I'm sure that is a well written rule, and I am sure it would help tables, but thinking as myself the idea that I need to "make a check" or be found out as a mouse seems weird
mellored
Hero
I'd rather have "make a check at level 1" than "can't be a mouse till level 11".
Certainly open to other suggestions though.
OB1
Jedi Master
I like it! PB per round would probably be enough. Full set of simple changes that keeps everything else the same.
Swap Large and Tiny at level 1 and 11
While in wildshape form damage doesn't force concertation checks
Moon Druids regenerate PB HP per round, goes to 2PB HP per round when you get the elemental features
I've run into three types of Druid Players:
1. The disorganized. Using Wildshape is a pain as they are hunting through various options every time.
2. The "I just want to be a wolf" ... they always wildshape into a wolf. And yes, they're a Moon Druid.
3. The Optimized and Organized. Yep, ready to go, have their chart of available animals, and ... yet again the most optimal form is bear.
And to be bluntly honest, the new Druid (after a few tweaks) is conceptually better for all three players. 1 ... well who knows if it'll actually work, but at least the info is centralized in front of them. 2 ... gets to be a wolf with stats that improve as they level up. And 3 ... Honestly, I've been there. When there's only really one or two correct (ie, most powerful for CR) options ... is it really even a choice?
So yes, I don't think the numbers are quite right, but I think this is the way the Druid should go, with player aimed generic statblocks, no more Monster Manual delving.
1. The disorganized. Using Wildshape is a pain as they are hunting through various options every time.
2. The "I just want to be a wolf" ... they always wildshape into a wolf. And yes, they're a Moon Druid.
3. The Optimized and Organized. Yep, ready to go, have their chart of available animals, and ... yet again the most optimal form is bear.
And to be bluntly honest, the new Druid (after a few tweaks) is conceptually better for all three players. 1 ... well who knows if it'll actually work, but at least the info is centralized in front of them. 2 ... gets to be a wolf with stats that improve as they level up. And 3 ... Honestly, I've been there. When there's only really one or two correct (ie, most powerful for CR) options ... is it really even a choice?
So yes, I don't think the numbers are quite right, but I think this is the way the Druid should go, with player aimed generic statblocks, no more Monster Manual delving.
Enrahim2
Adventurer
I am curious - for those unhappy that the hulk megatank build for druids are gone - How would you feel if that was instead moved to the barbarian class, as an upgraded totem warrior/beast subclass? That is you are locked down to a single animal, not having the versatility of the druid. However you get the full flavor and versatility of your chosen animal along with the base barbarian rage buffs.
The reason I ask is that I do recognize this as a pretty cool playstyle, it just seem to belong with the barbarian. That is the class that is supposed to have bursts of extreme martial power.
I have seen noone talking about how this is fiting the traditional flavor of druid in folklore - except for pointing out that transforming to small animals is sort of a standard. To me calm herbalists gathering in circles and having animal friends come to mind. If angered, I think of them as the organizers and commanders mashaling the powers of nature. Think Merlin or miraculix. I dont think I have seen a single source outside RPG where anything called "Druid" take a animal shape to brute force the situation. There are definitely room for that kind of fantasy, as demonstrated by Beorn, werewolves or animorphs, but these are certanly not the magic using druid trope.
As such getting rid of "power use" of wild shape appear like a good way to make the class more suitable for the more traditional druid concept. Rake ghe moon druid: I still think it might be relevant, but would need to be played with more care, and likely be more situational. For instance summonig up a bunch of animals change to their shape and do some self buffing before combat, and you have effectively a boosted combination of mirror image and spirit guardians while hitting close to a fighter. And this would be a tactic that resonate much more with my idea of a flavorful "Druid", than the owlbear-rager.
So yes, if you only played the Druid for power, then I don't weep for you a second if you now feel you have to change class. That just mean the balancing works. I do find the tiny limitation problematic though, as that is a source of a lot of fun. I however also accept it is massively overpowered at level 1. I think I would have liked to see it earlier than level 11, but the question is what should then be shuffled later? Maybe elemental resistance as that seem less iconic?
When it come to not having separate statblock per animal, I actually do not see the big problem. You can take the shape of a viper, but if you want the venom, you need a real one sound fully thematically aproperiate to me. Actually I think this can give some interesting flavor like the wolf that mystical creeps up the steep cliff
I can't immediately think of any big iconic effect that we would be missing out on with the shapes suggested.
The reason I ask is that I do recognize this as a pretty cool playstyle, it just seem to belong with the barbarian. That is the class that is supposed to have bursts of extreme martial power.
I have seen noone talking about how this is fiting the traditional flavor of druid in folklore - except for pointing out that transforming to small animals is sort of a standard. To me calm herbalists gathering in circles and having animal friends come to mind. If angered, I think of them as the organizers and commanders mashaling the powers of nature. Think Merlin or miraculix. I dont think I have seen a single source outside RPG where anything called "Druid" take a animal shape to brute force the situation. There are definitely room for that kind of fantasy, as demonstrated by Beorn, werewolves or animorphs, but these are certanly not the magic using druid trope.
As such getting rid of "power use" of wild shape appear like a good way to make the class more suitable for the more traditional druid concept. Rake ghe moon druid: I still think it might be relevant, but would need to be played with more care, and likely be more situational. For instance summonig up a bunch of animals change to their shape and do some self buffing before combat, and you have effectively a boosted combination of mirror image and spirit guardians while hitting close to a fighter. And this would be a tactic that resonate much more with my idea of a flavorful "Druid", than the owlbear-rager.
So yes, if you only played the Druid for power, then I don't weep for you a second if you now feel you have to change class. That just mean the balancing works. I do find the tiny limitation problematic though, as that is a source of a lot of fun. I however also accept it is massively overpowered at level 1. I think I would have liked to see it earlier than level 11, but the question is what should then be shuffled later? Maybe elemental resistance as that seem less iconic?
When it come to not having separate statblock per animal, I actually do not see the big problem. You can take the shape of a viper, but if you want the venom, you need a real one sound fully thematically aproperiate to me. Actually I think this can give some interesting flavor like the wolf that mystical creeps up the steep cliff
I can't immediately think of any big iconic effect that we would be missing out on with the shapes suggested.
mellored
Hero
4: you like to use a variety of shapes to adapt to different situations.
I'm still fine with a general stat block. But sometimes I want high speed and pounce to chase down a fleeing target, sometimes I want web to split a group of enemies, sometimes I want poison to give a boss disadvantage on attacks, sometimes I want to be a giant armored crab who can grapple, sometimes I want to push creatures off a cliff.
I'm fine with a general stat block. But it needs extra flexibility. Especially for the moon druid.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
Moon druids can now cast pass without trace as animal...
They need a little buff. But not much. Everything a bit earlier.
Remathilis
Legend
This is where I'm at. If you give me a few extra options that I can pick from (like poison, grapple/constrict, pounce, webs, etc) then I feel I can live with one statblock to rule them all.
A large amount of the summon spells in Tasha already gives one stat-block with a couple different configurations. I think that might be a good way to do this.
Clint_L
Hero
It is the traditional flavour of druids in RPGs, and I don't see it as a barbarian thing at all. I don't think the change will go through as currently framed, since it is already receiving heavy criticism. And I don't think it is at all fair to tell players that the way they have played their character for years would require them to re-roll as a totally different class.
The numbers need massaging at low levels, but the basic play style of druid tanking is fun and unique, and should not be removed from the game.
TheSword
Legend
Because it’s a joke. The Druid getting 2-5 times as many hp than the fighter with a couple of wild shapes makes a mockery of combat at low levels and the low AC makes it pointless at high levels at which Point the Druid becomes a lame horse.
Tiny wildshape particularly impacts non-combat challenges - where the Druid becomes the perfect spy/scout as long as they are on their own. The whole class is a party unity nightmare.
A serious rethink is needed.
I don’t think the unearthed arcana is the finished article but it’s a good starting point.
I believe they can, with a feat.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
im sorry but there is no point in combat wildshape as per this playtest... if each form got 5x your druid level in hp and when they hit 0 you revert to your form with extra damage rolling over it would be fine
on this we agree
I normally agree with a lot you say, but just no. Barbarians have 2 more HP/level and no spells. Fighters have 1 more HP/level.
TheSword
Legend
Wild shape grants a 1d8+wisdom damage attack. A 10’ increase in speed, darkvision, gains keen senses, at fifth level you’re getting multi-attack even though the Druid doesn’t normally get multi-attack and a 40’ climb speed.
Hardly no reason.
The problem is the drop in AC that’s what harms this Druid in combat. The ability should give the Druid AC 10 + Wis bonus + Dex bonus. Plus any magic improvements to AC.
I’d also like to see some wild spells that can be used in wild shape and improve wildshape combat ability - magic attacks, bite etc
mellored
Hero
I see you 5HP per level
and raise you 3 THP per level, still using your regular hit points.
How about taking the Toughness feat, buffing with spells, and buying combat wildshape focused magic items?
mellored
Hero
Fighters can have 20+ AC and still a 1d8 weapon. Barbarians have rage that effectively doubles their HP.
Wild shape gets 14 AC.
Not quite the same, and definitely needs something more to be in the front lines.
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