D&D (2024) New Wild Shape

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
The thing is base.Wild Shape gets you

  1. A better walking speed
  2. A fly speed
  3. A climb speed
  4. Keen senses
  5. Amphibious
  6. Flyby
  7. Tiny size
On a feature that has it's own resources that replenish on both rests.

In an almost pure combat hack n slash tomb looter, that's fine.
In any other game, that is very powerful.

The majority of 5e fans aren't running dungeon crawls in mega dungeons. So the druid has to be curtailed to match the game we play.

It's the 5e fighter problem in reverse.
 

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mellored

Legend
The thing is base.Wild Shape gets you

  1. A better walking speed
  2. A fly speed
  3. A climb speed
  4. Keen senses
  5. Amphibious
  6. Flyby
  7. Tiny size
This fine if wild shape was just for utility. (Though no reason to have 3 stat blocks).

But half the people voted that base wild shape should have some combat usefulness.

Any it shouldn't be too hard to make it better than a cantrip, without overshadowing anyone else.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
This fine if wild shape was just for utility.

But half the people voted that base wild shape should have some combat usefulness.

Any it shouldn't be too hard to make it better than a cantrip, without overshadowing anyone else.
It's not fine for just utility. That's my point. It's major exploration boost with its one resources.

FeatureLevel you get in 5eLevel you get Current Oe
Increased speed11
Climb speed15
Swim speed47
Fly Speed89
Large Size11
Tiny Size111

The base Wildshape on the base Druid should be weak. Going Exploration, Combat, or Social should be a subclass choice.

I think there should be a Sun druid and it is the Exploration druid. Keep Flight and Swim speed at the edge of tier 2. The skills based Sun druid gets them in Tier 1 with Wildshape but no combat buff.
 

DavyGreenwind

Just some guy
Moon druids would no longer be able to tank, which would be a profound change in their identity and play style. Non-starter for me.
I always thought it was strange that the primary use for the " transform into an animal" ability was basically to get a bag of HP. Turning into an animal is not necessary if you just want a feature that gives you a ton of THP. Also, without wildshape being tied to THP, you can't get "knocked out" of wildshape anymore. It lasts even if you get to 0 HP.

I think the best way to get that tankiness is with an AC boost, and maybe a bit of THP upon transforming.
 


Chaosmancer

Legend
We do have to remember that while a wizard can cast fly at 5th, its a concentration spell that lasts 10 minutes. One good hit and one failed save, and that wizard is falling from the sky.

That's a big difference from a druid who can stay in form for 2-3 hours around that level.

I'm not saying it should be 9th level, but I do think people get this notion that as soon as a wizard gets fly, suddenly flight is a common thing. 5e has corrected a lot of that, access to long continuous flight is very limited.....except to the druid.

But how useful is long continuous flight?

Also, it isn't JUST the wizard. It is the wizard, the bard, the sorcerer, the warlock, any Dragonborn, Aasimar on a time limit, any one who gets an uncommon magical item (magic broom is unlimited)... there are many sources of flight by 5th level. Again, very little of it is hours long, but how often is hours long flight for a single party member actually more useful than 10 minute targeted flight?

Also, at 7th level? The Cleric gains access to Find Greater Steed for unlimited flight. Additionally, if you just want to have anything that can fly, Find Familiar gets flight capable companions by level 1, and Artificers can make them as soon as they get a gemstone with the homunculus infusion.

Druids are one of the LAST casting classes to gain access to flight, and it is kind of bizarre, because there is nothing they can use it for that isn't already on the table for cheaper and easier by level 2.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
The thing is base.Wild Shape gets you

  1. A better walking speed
  2. A fly speed
  3. A climb speed
  4. Keen senses
  5. Amphibious
  6. Flyby
  7. Tiny size
On a feature that has it's own resources that replenish on both rests.

In an almost pure combat hack n slash tomb looter, that's fine.
In any other game, that is very powerful.

The majority of 5e fans aren't running dungeon crawls in mega dungeons. So the druid has to be curtailed to match the game we play.

It's the 5e fighter problem in reverse.

I'm sorry, struggling here. If you aren't in combat and not tracking round by round, how is one party member having an improved walking speed mean... anything? Like, the druid isn't going to be running ahead of the party the vast majority of the time, because they don't want to be caught alone (unless stealthing) so I'm not seeing how that matters except in combat situations.

Flyby is combat only. It has no use outside of combat.

Amphibious is rarely useful at all, since most characters can trivially hold their breath for 5 minutes. Also, Water Breathing is an easily accessed ritual by level 5, making everyone amphibious for the cost of just preparing it when you need it.

Fly speed trumps climb speed, and Familiars give a Fly speed companion to essentially anyone by level 1. For out of combat situations, having a telepathically controlled drone you can fly in and out of a situation is basically as good as it can get. It is also a ritual, so no spell slot cost in using it.


So, I'll agree on Keen Senses and Tiny Size, but outside of combat uses most of this ISN'T useful, isn't unique, or quickly rendered near pointless.
 

Stalker0

Legend
But how useful is long continuous flight?
10 minutes can be one encounter if your party is having to do any amount of searching. So you use your fly spell, you bypass one encounter, good for you. Druids can potentially bypass several encounters using their fly.

The magic broom is a bad example because frankly that item is undercosted. Boots of flying has a more limited duration and generally slower speed, and the carpet of flying is very rare.
 


Chaosmancer

Legend
10 minutes can be one encounter if your party is having to do any amount of searching. So you use your fly spell, you bypass one encounter, good for you. Druids can potentially bypass several encounters using their fly.

The magic broom is a bad example because frankly that item is undercosted. Boots of flying has a more limited duration and generally slower speed, and the carpet of flying is very rare.

How is the Druid allowing the entire party to bypass multiple encounters? Do you mean combat encounters, because the Druid can't allow any members of the party to bypass a combat encounter. Unless you are able to do something like fly up to a balcony and tie off a rope... which doesn't take hours of flight to do. That is multiple encounters with a single use.

Additionally, can you name a way that the Druid wildshaped into a bird can get the entire party to bypass multiple encounters that cannot ALSO be done by a Familiar with flight at level 1 from any Arcane caster? Like, you make the claim "multiple encounters" but I don't know what this looks like to you, what are you seeing here?

And gain a stronger offense, speed, xyz secondary ability (like trip), bonus action unarmed strike.

You mention the bonus action strike, which means you are talking new Druid. Which, first of all, the bonus action unarmed strike is indistinguishable from the trip attack, they are the same thing, and the unarmed strike is NOT a damage ability, it is purely control. Unless You are speaking about a specific homebrew solution and I missed that.

Going back to the playtest druid though you DO NOT get a stronger offense, at least not until level 5. Levels 1 through 4 are identical or weaker offense. Also, you have to consider that many of the wildshape templates offer really weak offense options. For example, the Flight Form gives multi-attack and flyby, which sounds very strong... except it is 2d4+wis mod. Assuming that by level 9 you have a 20 Wisdom that is 2d4+10 or 15 damage. This takes two actions for non-moon druids, which is two rounds. Do you doubt that a full caster with access to 5th level spells can't do at least 15 damage over two turns?

Sure, the Land form with Elemental strikes at level 10 is doing significantly better, they have a solid damage output of 2d8+2d6+10 or 26 damage, and can do that round one with a bonus action set-up, but that is also the exact damage of a rogue with a shortbow (6d6+5 = 26) who can use their bonus action to hide and was attacking at range and potentially even with advantage, while the Druid was in melee.

Heck, a druid who loses their mind can max dex and grab a shortbow to utilize Swift Quiver and do 3d6+15 = 25.5 or almost identical damage to the Land Form while staying much safer.


I'm not saying that 26 is bad damage, but it isn't good enough to make the druid desire losing AC and charging into melee. And that is solely the Moon druid, every other druid is looking at 2d8+10 or 19 damage with a full action set-up. Just casting a 4th level flame blade is better (only a bonus action to set up, deals 5d6 = 17.5, doesn't reduce AC) and I don't think Flame Blade has ever really been considered a stand out combat option for Druids.
 

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