New Wild Shape

[Horwath]

Tiny size should be available from level 3.

This kind is wildshape should be at-will ability, costing only (bonus) Action to activate.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Tiny size should be available from level 3.

This kind is wildshape should be at-will ability, costing only (bonus) Action to activate.

No. Level 3 is too early. But 7 would be appropriate.

 

[Clint_L]

Negative. Tiny should come as soon as you can wild shape. It is super fun in the story, especially at low levels. I would let them have it at level 1 if possible.

 

[Horwath]

No. Level 3 is too early. But 7 would be appropriate.

why?

you deal half damage.

You dont even get advantage on Stealth.

let's wait 11(or 7 as you suggest) levels to give druids somewhat useful exploration/role-play tool.
talk about; too little, too late.

It's same as current rangers Vanish ability. Bonus action Hide at 14th level? Yeah, about 11 levels too late.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

why?

you deal half damage.

You dont even get advantage on Stealth.

let's wait 11(or 7 as you suggest) levels to give druids somewhat useful exploration/role-play tool.
talk about; too little, too late.

It's same as current rangers Vanish ability. Bonus action Hide at 14th level? Yeah, about 11 levels too late.

Yeah. Lets put EVERYTHING into level 3. Why do I have to wait 17 levels for the Wish spell?

But yeah. Maybe tiny should be their own form and have advantage on stealth and no WIS to STR replacement.

 

[Enrahim2]

Some ideas:
Add proficiency bonus to AC.
Double the effect of healing on self when in beast form, and allow casting abdurations/healing as a bonus action. (This might fix the spell slot issue mentioned by @Chaosmancer)
Gain inspiration when wildshaping - optional rule this can be replaced by DM granting proficiency/experise in an form aproperiate skill.
Make the moon druid bonus action a bestial strike rather than an unarmed strike (i suspect this was what was intended)

I think these are ideas that would at least start working toward a solution to the main criticisms (except tiny) while keeping the core ideas?

 

[Horwath]

They should really take a hint from 3.5e PHB2 druid.

1st level wild shape: medium size, land speed 40ft
+4 STR, 1d6 damage, one attack

3rd level, tiny size, half speed of any form
1 damage attack, one attack
advantage on stealth

3rd level, aquatic shape, swim speed 40, breathe water, land speed 20
+4 STR, 1d6 damage, one attack

5th level, gain 2nd attack

7th level, underdark shape: burrow speed 20, land speed 20,
+4 STR, 1d6 damage

9th level, flight shape: fly speed 60, land speed 10,
+2 STR, 1d4 damage

11th level: large size, +4 additional STR in all shapes

13th level: elemental shape

17th level: huge size: +8 additional STR for all shapes


Moon druid:
Bonus action wildshape, 1st level
+4 additional STR in all forms, 3rd level
natural weapons count as magical, 6th level
damage reduction equal to proficiency bonus, 10th level
spellcasting in wild shape, 14th level

 

[UngeheuerLich]

They should really take a hint from 3.5e PHB2 druid.

1st level wild shape: medium size, land speed 40ft
+4 STR, 1d6 damage, one attack

3rd level, tiny size, half speed of any form
1 damage attack, one attack
advantage on stealth

3rd level, aquatic shape, swim speed 40, breathe water, land speed 20
+4 STR, 1d6 damage, one attack

5th level, gain 2nd attack

7th level, underdark shape: burrow speed 20, land speed 20,
+4 STR, 1d6 damage

9th level, flight shape: fly speed 60, land speed 10,
+2 STR, 1d4 damage

11th level: large size, +4 additional STR in all shapes

13th level: elemental shape

17th level: huge size: +8 additional STR for all shapes


Moon druid:
Bonus action wildshape, 1st level
+4 additional STR in all forms, 3rd level
natural weapons count as magical, 6th level
damage reduction equal to proficiency bonus, 10th level
spellcasting in wild shape, 14th level

Nope. +STR way worse than replacing STR with WIS.
Otherwise you see all those 20 STR Barbarian/Druids.

Generally the template approach us way better. It just needs some more balancing/improving.

Edit: now thinking of it, I think STR should just be a fixed value, starting at 16 and probably going up to 24 or even more.

 

[Horwath]

Nope. +STR way worse than replacing STR with WIS.
Otherwise you see all those 20 STR Barbarian/Druids.

Generally the template approach us way better. It just needs some more balancing/improving.

Edit: now thinking of it, I think STR should just be a fixed value, starting at 16 and probably going up to 24 or even more.

that could work.

but, with +x STR you can have moon druids based on STR and not so good spellcasting and good spellcasters and not so good wildshape fighters.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

that could work.

but, with +x STR you can have moon druids based on STR and not so good spellcasting and good spellcasters and not so good wildshape fighters.

If that is your intend, and your proposal of subclass at level 1 is in place, that could work.
But since I like it better that you play your class for 2 levels before making that big decision, I think, putting a fixed STR in (and making that higher for moon druids) makes more sense.

I think, if you would make a 5e derrivate game, that has subclass 1st level which impact the base classes way more than they do now, it would make a fine game... but I think OneD&D is the wrong place.

 

[Minigiant]

Wildshape is better as multiple spells. Bear Shape. Dogform. Sea Beast.

But that's two different from 5E that it couldn't be backwards compatible.

 

[MarkB]

There was, at least, one decent QoL improvement in this version of wild shape: You retain the ability to speak. So your character no longer has to be the party's silent partner if you're maintaining animal form whilst exploring a dungeon.

 

[Minigiant]

Suggestion: allow tiny scouting, but not automatic succeed at it.

When spotted by another creature, you can make a Wisdom (Nature) check against their passive insight. If you succeed, they assume you are a normal animal and will generally pay you no mind, allowing you to sneak past or scout.
Unnatrial behavior that brings attention to yourself, such a mouse grabbing a key, will instantly cause alarm. And cooks may still chase a mouse out of a kitchen.

Also, druids should have expertise in nature.

Things like this should be in the PHB but the DMG.

THE FACT THAT AFTER 50 YEARS that the DMG doesn't have subsections on each class and how to handle their mechanics, lore, and roleplaying is baffling.

 

[ehren37]

That they can't use while wildshaping.
I accept that the ability to wildshape and be a full spell caster gives druids a lot of potential flexibility. But all that flexibility is still channeled through one set of actions at any one time. So bringing up that they're spell casters in discussions about the power of wildshape isn't quite the same topic.
I've found it pretty unusual for a druid to be making the most of wildshaping and being a full spell caster at the same time.

Yes, wildshape lets them save spell slots so they can spotlight hog outside of combat too. It's basically "barbarian stance" that they can drop when they feel like it. Would you be OK if barbarians had an ability that temporarily reduced their HP by 2/level and gave them full casting?

 

[renbot]

Several people have noted the balance/niche protection conflict between "an effective combat wildshape" and "full caster with 9-levels of spells." 3 campaigns ago (time flies) the moon druid in my game became pretty disappointed with his wildshape options around level 7 or so. I developed template-based wildshape options and added kickers that he could get by burning spell slots. That way the ability to be really tanky or deal occasional nova damage came at cost of fewer spells later when he was in humanoid form. It seemed to strike a good balance: if he really want to be a shape-changing terror on the battlefield, he had to accept casting fewer spells later on.

 

[Clint_L]

Yes, wildshape lets them save spell slots so they can spotlight hog outside of combat too. It's basically "barbarian stance" that they can drop when they feel like it. Would you be OK if barbarians had an ability that temporarily reduced their HP by 2/level and gave them full casting?

I dunno, that seems like a pretty good deal. Not a good analogy. What if you had a barbarian subclass where they could no longer fight at all but in exchange got to be a mediocre caster?

Because outside of levels 2-4 and 17-20, a moon Druid is a mediocre fighter. They can tank okay just through having tons of HP but their hit rolls and damage really lag along with their AC. Outside of combat their spell casting is…well, vanilla Druid. Their advantage is flexibility.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

So, it just hit me that the Druid changes are the opposite of what Crawford said was a main design goal, to make changes to classes for the people who love the class.

Instead, it seems like the Druid changes are to try to make it more popular (as it ranks last), but that's a huge mistake. If the class was played FAR less than the next closest, I could see the need to try and increase it's popularity, but it's basically within a few percentage points of every class except the Fighter and Rogue, and those two are higher than then next most popular class than the Druid is behind the 3rd place class.

Let the druid be awesome for the people who love it (and also make every other class awesome for the people who love those). There is no need to have every class appeal to every player.

to be honest they could do both. There is nothing inherent about the Wildshape template usage to prevent to current style it just means tweaking the template.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Some ideas:
Add proficiency bonus to AC.

I agree with this but not the rest:

Double the effect of healing on self when in beast form, and allow casting abdurations/healing as a bonus action. (This might fix the spell slot issue mentioned by @Chaosmancer)
Gain inspiration when wildshaping - optional rule this can be replaced by DM granting proficiency/experise in an form aproperiate skill.
Make the moon druid bonus action a bestial strike rather than an unarmed strike (i suspect this was what was intended)

I think these are ideas that would at least start working toward a solution to the main criticisms (except tiny) while keeping the core ideas?

How about give the druid a class feature to cast barkskin (The new version with temp HP) with out concentration, similar to the Ranger with Hunter's Mark. Maybe as a bonus action.
Then with with an AC boost, temp hp per turn and Hunter's Mark you have a tankable wildshape.

 

[mellored]

I developed template-based wildshape options and added kickers that he could get by burning spell slots

Works for me.

Level 1 slot
Tiny size (half damage)
Pounce
3* spell level THP each turn
+10 speed

Level 2 slot
Climb speed
darkvision
swim speed
Proficiency on a save

Level 3 slot
Flight
reach
poison stinger (scaling by slot)
web
chameleon (advantage on stealth)

Level 4 slot
Swallow (giant frog)
advantage on a saving throw
huge size
+elemental damage (scaling by slot)

Level 5
Elemental resistance (chose 1)

Level 6
Physical resistance (B, P, or S)
Gargantuan size
...

Level 9 slot
Kaiju

Moon druids get one for free without spending a slot.

 

[Enrahim2]

I agree with this but not the rest:

How about give the druid a class feature to cast barkskin (The new version with temp HP) with out concentration, similar to the Ranger with Hunter's Mark. Maybe as a bonus action.
Then with with an AC boost, temp hp per turn and Hunter's Mark you have a tankable wildshape.

I fully agree if the goal had only been to make a tankable wildshape. However my self healing boost suggestion was also intended to cover the complaint that there is nothing good to use spell-slots on. Barkskin with its duration, and for this purpose useless upcasting do not fill this purpose.

(And the inspiration suggestion was not to improve tank at all, but rather a light weight mean to give mechanical meaning to some flavor the players might want from the shape - like deception of chosing a shape to blend in, intimidate if going for something ferocious, or perception if using something for heighten senses)