WotC New WotC Statement on Orion Black

[Olrox17]

Twitter is my main form of social media. I find it to be civilised. It depends entirely on who you choose to follow, so it's not like ENWorld where, by default, you see everyone's posts.

To give an example of the positive and interesting aspects of twitter, see this thread about a cursed Roman ring and its connection with JRR Tolkien:

That's pretty darn cool, not gonna lie, and that is probably the kind of content that Twitter handles well. Non-contentious, informative, inoffensive, scientific stuff. I mean, who's going to disagree or argue about a cool archeological story and its fun connection to an important piece of literature? There's nothing to argue about.

Twitter is terrible when it comes down to having discussions where different viewpoints clash, to any degree. The site's structure tends to encourage the worst kind of arguments, and the worst kind of behavior from the arguers.

 

[MGibster]

We aren't in court. The legal meaning is irrelevant, we are discussing things in their colloquial meanings.

And what does it mean in a colloquial sense? Orion specifically points out that their coworkers weren't mean to them. Actually, Orion doesn't even say they were working in a hostile environment.

I'm completely certain they don't care about your disapproval. They're handling this exactly as they intend to, judging by their various statements.

Maybe you're unfamiliar with how message boards work. Nobody cares about our approval or disapproval. All of this amounts to little more than a fart in a hurricane. You think Orion cares about your approval. I'm guessing the answer is no, but you're still participating. So why is it important for you to make it clear that Orion doesn't care about my approval?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I can’t think of a worse place than Twitter for having civilized conversations. Maybe 4chan? I don’t actually know, never posted there, only know their reputation.

Twitter’s structure lends itself very well to shouting, outrage, extreme positions and factionalism. The Wotc forums, at their very worst moments (edition wars, not enough moderation) might’ve been as bad as Twitter is normally, but they were usually much better than that.

My experience on twitter is basically the opposite of this. It depends on your willingness to block and to seek out the content you want to engage with.
You may have had some bad experiences on twitter, but I have reasonable discussions about contentious topics on twitter literally several times a week.

And what does it mean in a colloquial sense?

A work enviroment in which one feels unwelcome due to the behaviors of others. Their description of working at wotc is hostile, regardless of whether it was sustained long enough or direct enough to meet the legal definition.

Maybe you're unfamiliar with how message boards work. Nobody cares about our approval or disapproval. All of this amounts to little more than a fart in a hurricane. You think Orion cares about your approval. I'm guessing the answer is no, but you're still participating. So why is it important for you to make it clear that Orion doesn't care about my approval?

I find it obnoxious to go out of your way to tell everyone how much you disaprove of how someone you don't know is handling their affairs, and basically tone policing them while simultaneously concern trolling about them.

 

[MGibster]

A work enviroment in which one feels unwelcome due to the behaviors of others. Their description of working at wotc is hostile, regardless of whether it was sustained long enough or direct enough to meet the legal definition.

Again, we don't know if Orion felt unwelcome because of the behavior of other people or because of their own behavior.

I find it obnoxious to go out of your way to tell everyone how much you disaprove of how someone you don't know is handling their affairs, and basically tone policing them while simultaneously concern trolling about them.

Fair enough. I find it obnoxious when someone trots out concern trolling and tone policing because it's usually a good indication they have nothing of substance to offer.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Again, we don't know if Orion felt unwelcome because of the behavior of other people or because of their own behavior.



Fair enough. I find it obnoxious when someone trots out concern trolling and tone policing because it's usually a good indication they have nothing of substance to offer.

LOL okay, bud. I'll go ahead and make sure we don't have much interaction in the future.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Unfortunately, corporations and professionals get punished for apologizing because it can suggest legal liability. Hence, the silence.

This isn't quite true, at least in the UK, and US law here is similar as I understand it. Rather it is one of those things legal laymen repeat because people say it on TV and stuff (like the false claim that it is a legal requirement for a public company to maximise shareholder dividends - it certainly is not). It is worth running an apology (public or private) past legal, sure, because some people do say silly things or write cheques their bum can't cash when apologising, but if you are a corporation large enough that you even have legal, you can certainly craft a perfectly good apology that doesn't cause problems. And most conventional apologies will be fine. Individual civil liability cases it can be an issue but even then it's frequently falsely claimed to be an issue by very cautious and/or somewhat incompetent lawyers (I've interacted with the US civil law system and am aware the US has a staggering number of basically incompetent but financially successful lawyers - said interaction ended with one of these idiots getting disbarred, which was hilarious, but that's a long story). In the vast majority of cases the determination of fault will be in no way related to any apologies, because the evidence will determine it.

 

[Haldrik]

This isn't quite true, at least in the UK, and US law here is similar as I understand it. Rather it is one of those things legal laymen repeat because people say it on TV and stuff (like the false claim that it is a legal requirement for a public company to maximise shareholder dividends - it certainly is not). It is worth running an apology (public or private) past legal, sure, because some people do say silly things or write cheques their bum can't cash when apologising, but if you are a corporation large enough that you even have legal, you can certainly craft a perfectly good apology that doesn't cause problems. And most conventional apologies will be fine. Individual civil liability cases it can be an issue but even then it's frequently falsely claimed to be an issue by very cautious and/or somewhat incompetent lawyers (I've interacted with the US civil law system and am aware the US has a staggering number of basically incompetent but financially successful lawyers - said interaction ended with one of these idiots getting disbarred, which was hilarious, but that's a long story). In the vast majority of cases the determination of fault will be in no way related to any apologies, because the evidence will determine it.

At least with regard to medical practice, I have seen lawyers say to say nothing. And the doctors themselves are terrified of lawsuits. Doctors rarely say, "oops, sorry". Meanwhile, political advisors say to politicians to never apologize, unless a controversy explodes and there is no escaping it. These are things I have seen here in the US.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

At least with regard to medical practice, I have seen lawyers say to say nothing. And the doctors themselves are terrified of lawsuits. Doctors rarely say, "oops, sorry". Meanwhile, political advisors say to politicians to never apologize, unless a controversy explodes and there is no escaping it. These are things I have seen here in the US.

Yes, but it's not really about opening oneself to lawsuits, which are decided on the facts, rather that "but he said he was sorry!".

 

[Haldrik]

@doctorbadwolf

Happily, WotC officially welcomes the concerns about D&D from various identity groups.

"
Lastly, we want to make it clear that we condemn the harassment or bullying of those raising their concerns about our content, past or present. D&D wants to be an open, welcoming, and inclusive space. Those who do not reflect those values are not welcome in our community.
— Dungeons & Dragons (@Wizards_DnD) July 8, 2020

"

These kinds of discussions benefit the game.

 

[Haldrik]

Yes, but it's not really about opening oneself to lawsuits, which are decided on the facts, rather that "but he said he was sorry!".

The US can be very litigious in places. My impression is UK tends to think of lawsuits as a last resort, and otherwise "just grin and bear it". Bad things happen, and that is part of life. But often enough in the US, there is opportunism if bad things happen.

I remember being in a train on an elevated track say 30 meters in the air, when it wobbled. I couldnt believe my ears, when passengers complained that if the train fell, they would sue the company. I said outloud, we might not be alive to enjoy the money that we win.