No 5e threads for now, please

[fanboy2000]

But, with a large enough online population, odds are you are going to be able to find a stable group at a particular time that also share your play tastes. It can be a real trial though, as I can personally attest. I went through dozens of players before my current group finally solidified.

I'm currently going through this myself. In many cases, they are becoming my friends.

 

[Hussar]

I'm currently going through this myself. In many cases, they are becoming my friends.

Oh, totally agree. Of my current group, 2 have been with me for about 4 years, 1 about 2 years and one since last Christmas. They have all become my friends, despite never having met in person.

But, for some very bizarre reason, whenever we try for a 5th player, that seat is absolutely cursed. I ran The World's Largest Dungeon online for 80 sessions. 4 players played in almost all 80 sessions. Yet, the final tally on players was well over a dozen and possibly close to two. Sigh.

 

[MichaelSomething]

OSRIC. Pathfinder. Castles & Crusades. Hell, in a certain light, GURPS and RIFTS and the Storyteller System, and Buffy!

There's plenty of demand out there for stuff that WotC isn't making. Some of it even makes a tidy profit! WotC can certainly plug into a large portion of that, though they'd need to explore nontraditional options.

Then those who are getting what they want from other companys should be happy that their wants are being meet. They shouldn't be wondering why WOTC isn't supplying them when there are plenty of others who are willing to.

 

[Lanefan]

Then those who are getting what they want from other companys should be happy that their wants are being meet. They shouldn't be wondering why WOTC isn't supplying them when there are plenty of others who are willing to.

True enough.

WotC, however, probably *should* be wondering why WotC isn't supplying them...

Lanefan

 

[Pseudopsyche]

WotC, however, probably *should* be wondering why WotC isn't supplying them...

I am a big fan of WotC, but I am an even bigger fan of diversity. The industry needs publishers of different sizes and strengths to cater most efficiently to the various niches in the market. I don't believe that any one company should seek to be all things to all consumers. I don't blame WotC for not wanting to support every niche, no more than I blame Paizo for not wanting to support 4E. Companies should play to their strengths.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Then those who are getting what they want from other companys should be happy that their wants are being meet. They shouldn't be wondering why WOTC isn't supplying them when there are plenty of others who are willing to.

Sure, but that wasn't what I was responding to. You said that WotC wasn't providing these older editions because there wasn't enough demand, so I showed how there is plenty of demand for things WotC isn't currently offering.

Effectively, I'm arguing that WotC get out of the "game design" business almost entirely, and instead rely on the extended fan community to design, so it wouldn't be so much that WotC would be supplying these things as it would be that WotC would be making a tidy profit off of the supplying that Random Internet Fans would do for free.

I don't believe that any one company should seek to be all things to all consumers. I don't blame WotC for not wanting to support every niche, no more than I blame Paizo for not wanting to support 4E. Companies should play to their strengths.

It's easy to be all things to all consumers when you don't actually have to make stuff yourself. Consumers make what they want, and pick what they want, and they just pay you to deliver it to them.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Sure, but that wasn't what I was responding to. You said that WotC wasn't providing these older editions because there wasn't enough demand, so I showed how there is plenty of demand for things WotC isn't currently offering.

Effectively, I'm arguing that WotC get out of the "game design" business almost entirely, and instead rely on the extended fan community to design, so it wouldn't be so much that WotC would be supplying these things as it would be that WotC would be making a tidy profit off of the supplying that Random Internet Fans would do for free.

Personally I don't thing the demand is large enough for it to be worthwhile for WOTC. The internet community (and the old-school movement) is most likely a vocal minority (IMO). Will they line up to buy old-school style books if WOTC made them? Even if they all did, would be enough for WOTC? I imagine a book would have to sell at least 100,000 copies to be even worth doing. Will that many old-schoolers really show up to buy them?

As for WOTC's business model, that's a completely different stack of beans. Web 2.0 style business are the new trend in business. The OGL is way more open then the GSL. WOTC may be fools for ignoring it but I really don't know enough about the subject to say either way.

The only example I can bring up right now is Dungeon Magazine. They literally take submissions from anyone yet almost all the published adventures are from people who had previous working expereince with WOTC; why is that so? Is WOTC a bunch of cruel jerks

Did anyone use gaming material they discovered on ENworld? I hear so many complaints about D&D's hit point system but has anyone decided to create an alternative to it? Brand name effect buying habits as much as (if not more then) how good the product is.

Gotta go DM a game now. I'll clarify myself/respond later.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The internet community (and the old-school movement) is most likely a vocal minority (IMO). Will they line up to buy old-school style books if WOTC made them? Even if they all did, would be enough for WOTC? I imagine a book would have to sell at least 100,000 copies to be even worth doing. Will that many old-schoolers really show up to buy them?

"I imagine a book would have to sell at least 100,000 copies to be even worth doing" is looking at it the wrong way around, at least for my proposed wacky scheme. Make a profit (even a small one) selling memberships to the site, and on each individual book sale, and keep the team small, and you don't need to sell that many individual books to turn a profit. Even better, you don't need to "do" the books yourself -- other people create the material in them, you just print them (again, look at Flat Earth Publishing). Since you're not really producing content (or not producing much), you can decrease the size of your infrastructure, and you make a huge profit over the long term, without very many costs after the initial cost of setting up the system.

For the TTRPG industry, a format like this makes a lot more sense than the traditional edition format.

Take a look upthread at where I layed out the theoretical steps in this system. Even if all WotC did was charge something like $20 a month for access to every edition's rules, they would make a profit on it, especially in the long term, after the costs of setting up the system were accounted for in the first year or so.

You don't need a lot of people. Half the web games being advertised on ENWorld right now only make money on about 5% of the user base, but because the costs of supporting that other 95% are so low, they make a profit.

Essentially, this is about lowering marginal costs, and expanding the market, at the same time. If only 10 people ever print a 2e book with this system, it can still be entirely worth it, because it is so insanely cheap to make that 2e stuff available, that essentially the people playing, say, 4e or 5e or whatever, can subsidize these, and the few bucks that the 2e folks throw your way are still profit.

They literally take submissions from anyone yet almost all the published adventures are from people who had previous working expereince with WOTC; why is that so? Is WOTC a bunch of cruel jerks
...
Did anyone use gaming material they discovered on ENworld? I hear so many complaints about D&D's hit point system but has anyone decided to create an alternative to it? Brand name effect buying habits as much as (if not more then) how good the product is.

I'm under the impression that Dungeon right now is kind of a special case. It's still trying to figure out what it is.

As far as using material from ENWorld? Absolutely! Asmor's 4e programs, or, heck, Jamis Buck's 3e programs in the early days of Eric Noah's site...ENWorld was how I found MapTool. ENWorld is the only reason I'm still buying D&D products. How many threads right now are asking DMing advice, or learning about game design of specific elements, to help people enjoy their game more? When we're not sniping at each other about what kind of rules are the best to dress up and play faerie elves with, ENWorld is an amazingly productive community.

And it's not even just ENWorld.

Fan stuff for D&D and other TTRPG's tends to be pretty dang high quality. What's lacking -- aside from occasional threads on ENWorld and the like -- is an easy way to separate the wheat from the chaff and quickly and easily monetize it. Add WotC - level production values to get the most out of your Print On Demand item, and I can't help but think it would do quite well for itself.

Traditional book publishing is probably not the best way to serve the TTRPG crowd in the next 10 years, let alone 30 or 40 or 50 years down the line.

 

[Mournblade94]

Because some of us come here to talk about the game we love instead of listening to people tell us why they hate the game we love in every single freaking thread. Seriously, why do people spend so much time spreading negativity instead of talking about the things they like, I will never understand. If you do not like 4e, talk about 3.x, 2e, 1e, OD&D or whatever is your poison.

Or you can discuss what you do not like about other game systems.

Seems perfectly valid to me. Criticism is not spreading of negativity.

If you do not like criticism of 4e you do not have to read it.

 

[Mournblade94]

And, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the compendium thingie, or whatever its called, the thing that's got all the monsters in it and whatnot, also free to use up to about 3rd level?

Y'know, throughout the history of WOTC running D&D, critics have constantly shoveled it on top that WOTC was nothing but a bunch of money grubbing suits who do nothing but try to line their pockets. Yet, I'm having a tough time thinking of all that many RPG companies that give away as much free material as WOTC does. Free adventures, free rules, free tools.

Hrm.....

If those companies had megacorporations like Hasbro behind them I am sure they would.