No AoO w/o Combat Reflexes?

[Sadrik]

Once upon a time a long time ago I came up with some engagement rules for AoO. Back then I had it so that you had a chance of AoO based on if you were bigger than your opponent and a reach weapon and mount essentially made you 1 step bigger for purposes of this. So when you engaged an enemy you checked for AoO and when you left an engagement you checked for AoO. If you were tied in size neither got AoO. I dropped all other AoO. Something to think about anyway.

 

[Voadam]

I'm really going to refresh myself on the Attack of Opportunity rules, again, before making any changes. I don't think I'm going with my original suggestion in the first post. Right now, I'm leaning toward Sylrae's idea that making an Attack of Opportunity provokes an Attack of Opportunity. Do you have any thoughts on the pros or cons concerning this idea?

Thanks!

It means that PCs/creatures threatened by multiple foes are unlikely to take AoOs.

Wolf packing therefore means it is less dangerous to do AoO provoking maneuvers.

Also that you can strategically try to bait someone into taking an AoO you provoke so that your comrades dog pile the counter AoOs against them.

Reach will still be used to threaten those trying to charging in. This will stop after the first combatants close. Tip of the spear lead charger still is a dangerous position.

No impact on one on one fights unless you can counter AoO your attacker with combat reflexes.

If combat reflexes lets you counter AoO those who strike at you, you have more incentive to do maneuvers that provoke AoOs (including taking AoOs).

Consider a monster with Combat Reflexes wolf packed by three characters. One PC provokes an AoO. The monster takes the AoO and strikes the PC provoking AoOs from the other two. The others take the AoOs on the monster each provoking one from it as well. It then strikes both of them with its extra AoOs provoking AoOs from the original PC. It turns out to be equal number of blows on both sides unless the monster runs out of CR AoOs or the PCs have CR as well in which case it leans towards favoring the PCs.

Often a monster will not get in an equal number of attacks against PCs swarming it in a round, so one for one attacks can be a good trade off.

 

[Sylrae]

If you leave the AoO rules as is and add in this idea that making an AoO provokes an AoO, it changes the landscape without necessarily unbalancing things; Combat Ref would be a fantastic feat-even more so than usual. A typical character would think twice about taking an AoO however, and tactical movement would become slightly easier.

The consequences for special opponents are that mages and archers are at a slight additional disadvantage from the core rules (since they provoke a lot of AoOs but generally don't threaten an area and can't retaliate) and big creatures or anyone with with reach has an advantage (because they can whack enemies before they're in range to retaliate). On the whole, I think the retaliatory AoO idea is an interesting wrinkle, not necessary by any means, but not as unbalancing as the original changes.

The second change I made, which people are overlooking, is just what you can DO with an attack of opportunity (possiblydue o wording) I'm going to clarify the mechanic.

- It's a free standard action. This means that if an AoO comes up, the mage can cast a standard-action casting time spell. The Archer can make an AoO with the bow.

- I'd rule that if someone is making a ranged attack, it only provokes AoOs against someone with a melee weapon. (unless the Ranged attack is itself, an AoO).

- If an action provokes an attack of opportunity, only one creature will have the chance to take it. If multiple creatures try, the others will get in the way of the attacks (so the one with the highest init mod gets it; if tied, look at Dex Mod, if tied, look at Dex Score, If Tied, flip a goddamn coin).
I'm thinking a system where you can get more creatures doing AoOs based on size difference. Though the Wolf Packing Idea could work too. This way was my original concept though.

- Additionally, flat footed creatures, and creatures denied their dex bonus to AC for any reason cannot make AoOs.

-You can only make 1 AoO against a single creature in a round.

Tell me what you think of these restrictions. Maybe they're uncalled for, but we'll see.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Simple question: If you rule that using an AoO provokes an AoO, then if a PCuses one against an NPC and the NPC in turn takes an AoO on the PC...can't the PC then take an AoO on the NPC for taking an AoO? Granted, you'd need Combat Reflexes to have another one (or some Tome of Battle maneuvers), but still...I don't like unnecessary loops. And saying the PC can't counteract the AoO would be dumb and arbitrary. Heck...it means you're basically giving everyone a watered dow Robilar's Gambit for free! Want to get in an extra attack? Provoke one from your foe, and hack him up when he's stupid enough to actually punish you for leaving yourself open. Fun! /sarcasm

I much prefer El Madhi's idea.

And for what it's worth, I find CR to generally be an underpowered feat that is almost never taken EXCEPT that rare specialty trip build, which while common on char op boards, is seldom seen in play (probably because with big/strange monsters and/or flying, not to mention teleporting SLAs and such, it's far too easy for the DM to make tripping ineffective). I actually slightly boosted it in my houserules...and still not a single PC has taken it since I added to it.

 

[Sylrae]

Simple question: If you rule that using an AoO provokes an AoO, then if a PC uses one against an NPC and the NPC in turn takes an AoO on the PC...

I could have sworn I already clarified this. If you take an AoO against someone, there are 2 issues there. 1. If the NPC Provoked an AoO, The one who takes it isn't provoking an AoO from him, just from everyone else. Otherwise it would just be ridiculous. and 2. Odds are the action that provoked the AoO to begin with left him flat footed, prone, or otherwise unable to make an AoO.

can't the PC then take an AoO on the NPC for taking an AoO? Granted, you'd need Combat Reflexes to have another one (or some Tome of Battle maneuvers), but still...I don't like unnecessary loops. And saying the PC can't counteract the AoO would be dumb and arbitrary. Heck...it means you're basically giving everyone a watered dow Robilar's Gambit for free! Want to get in an extra attack? Provoke one from your foe, and hack him up when he's stupid enough to actually punish you for leaving yourself open. Fun! /sarcasm

Described your way it DOES sound pretty retarded! Good thing we can all agree on that one. I just felt a huge weight lifted off my chest. /sarcasm.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And for what it's worth, I find CR to generally be an underpowered feat that is almost never taken EXCEPT that rare specialty trip build...

Personally, CR is one of my favorite feats- not only have I built a trip/disarmer PC with it, but generally use it for my Monks and Polearm warriors. And when the Monk is a Polearm warrior...

 

[Gansk]

We're really starting to get more into miniatures, now, whether we play 3X or AD&D, so tactics seem to be getting more important for our group. I just didn't want everyone to paralyze their characters in combat in order to avoid AoO's. I've seen that happen a lot, so I was trying to think of a way to reduce the frequency of AoO's.

Use the rules from Trailblazer. If you enter or move around in a threatened area - no AoO. If you leave a threatened area - AoO. All the other AoO rules still apply.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Use the rules from Trailblazer. If you enter or move around in a threatened area - no AoO. If you leave a threatened area - AoO. All the other AoO rules still apply.

I kinda like this, too, Gansk.

In the Trailblazer PDF, concerning withdrawing, it reads:

If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal.​

Question 1: Do you think that this is a typo? Should it say "area" instead of square? I find this an odd exception to the Trailblazer AoO rules concerning movement.

Question 2: What effect does this have on the game? Does it break anything?

Thanks!

 

[Gansk]

In the Trailblazer PDF, concerning withdrawing, it reads:

If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal.​

Question 1: Do you think that this is a typo? Should it say "area" instead of square? I find this an odd exception to the Trailblazer AoO rules concerning movement.

When you use the withdraw action, you can leave the first square of an area without provoking AoO's per normal 3.5 rules. The sentence refers specifically to a situation where you:
1) have used the withdraw action to leave
2) have already left your first square
3) you are still in the threatened area

then you still provoke AoO's as you always did in 3.5 rules.

This still allows the reach monsters to be dangerous when the PC's need to retreat. This case will be rare - the player paralysis occurs when they are engaging the enemy or moving around to flank.

I haven't personally used the rules, but they seem to specifically address your problem.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

In the Trailblazer PDF, concerning withdrawing, it reads:

If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal.​

Question 1: Do you think that this is a typo? Should it say "area" instead of square? I find this an odd exception to the Trailblazer AoO rules concerning movement.

Question 2: What effect does this have on the game? Does it break anything?

We've made quite a few clarifications and changes since the first release (and we'll be updating the PDF with these changes soon).

Withdraw
Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. When withdrawing, you can move out of the threatened areas of enemies without drawing attacks of opportunity. However, you must move in a straight line and you must move away from all enemies to the best of your ability.

Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can’t withdraw from combat if you’re blinded. You can’t take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw.

You may not withdraw using a form of movement for which you don’t have a listed speed.

Restricted Withdraw: If you are limited to taking only a standard action each round you can withdraw as a standard action. In this case, you may move up to your speed (rather than up to double your speed).​