D&D (2024) No Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc suborgins, lineages, and legacies

[Crimson Longinus]

That was like the best part of RPing a Drow or an (half)Orc

Yeah, same with the tieflings.

Fantasy setting should be allowed to have unpleasant things, as those are required for interesting fiction. If the devil person doesn't have to deal with being a mistrusted outcast then what's the point?

 

[Mind of tempest]

I mean the game is pretty damn easy. You don't in any real sense "need" high stats. People just want them.

The system failure is that we are now in situation where value of each class' main stats might as well be directly determined by your class, instead of chosen by the player. Each wizard has the same int, each bard the same charisma etc. I didn't like 4e approach either, which was just giving up and having feats that let you use whichever stat you wanted to for attack. At that point just get rid of ability scores. To have ability scores to matter, but still allowing variety within classes would require classes to be more MAD. Then with the ability choices you could choose to focus on specific areas of the class or have more even spread to be more generalised.

no it is the desire to be effective and the small budget, worst case we get to the cool monsters faster.

Yeah, same with the tieflings.

Fantasy setting should be allowed to have unpleasant things, as those are required for interesting fiction. If the devil person doesn't have to deal with being a mistrusted outcast then what's the point?

depends on the setting the devil person could be the ingroup the ruling class, other whole different things matter like religion or nation.

it is also knowing how to do something so people are okay with it.

 

[Hussar]

I don't want them to be identical, I just want them to feel like halflings. And I sorta feel that these three feet tall people not being physically as strong as people twice as tall and eight times the weight is part of that. Being more agile and nimble that the "big folks" is part of that. I want halfling to actually feel different in play than an orc and so forth.

And that's absolutely fine. No one is saying that you shouldn't be able to do that. And, with floating ASI's you absolutely can.

Where I draw the line though is you telling me that my halfling must be different.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

And that's absolutely fine. No one is saying that you shouldn't be able to do that. And, with floating ASI's you absolutely can.

Where I draw the line though is you telling me that my halfling must be different.

Yeah not the same.

Consider this. It is defining trait of wizards that they cannot cast healing magic. But that is the game telling us what to do! But wait, let's just everyone choose any spell, and if people like limitation of wizards not having access to healing spells, then they can just not choose those!

Purpose of the splats is to define things; thy should tell us what we are allowed to do! If they don't, they do not need to exist. If species rules are not defining those species, then just get rid of the concept. Everyone can just choose a bunch of free-floating feats and traits at character creation, and fluff it however they want. And then for sake of consistency, do that with the classes.

 

[Remathilis]

Yeah not the same.

Consider this. It is defining trait of wizards that they cannot cast healing magic. But that is the game telling us what to do! But wait, let's just everyone choose any spell, and if people like limitation of wizards not having access to healing spells, then they can just not choose those!.

Is it?

There are a bunch of ways to have a wizard heal in 5e. Feats, spells like wither and bloom or life transference, etc. They tried for a few subclasses at one point. The prohibition on wizard healing isn't absolute, nor should the idea of all halflings being good thieves and poor fighters.

What this debate always comes down to is people who are afraid other people will play their characters "wrong" and want to rules to force them to play them "right". Strong halflings are wrong. Bookish orc wizards are wrong. WotC needs to tell those players that a halflings must be weak and an orc must be swinging a sword all the time.

That's really what this debate is about; somewhere out there is a player engaging in badwrongfun and we need the rules to put an end to this RIGHT NOW!

 

[TwoSix]

Purpose of the splats is to define things; thy should tell us what we are allowed to do! If they don't, they do not need to exist. If species rules are not defining those species, then just get rid of the concept. Everyone can just choose a bunch of free-floating feats and traits at character creation, and fluff it however they want. And then for sake of consistency, do that with the classes.

That's my normal mode of play at this point.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Is it?

There are a bunch of ways to have a wizard heal in 5e. Feats, spells like wither and bloom or life transference, etc. They tried for a few subclasses at one point. The prohibition on wizard healing isn't absolute, nor should the idea of all halflings being good thieves and poor fighters.

And halflings can bump their strength with levelling ASIs. But I think it is clear that wizards would struggle to be healers and it comes far easier to other classes, bickering about specifics doesn't change the overall picture. (And halflings were never bad fighters, they just needed to be dex-based fighters. They had to adopt the flavour that fit their species.)

What this debate always comes down to is people who are afraid other people will play their characters "wrong" and want to rules to force them to play them "right". Strong halflings are wrong. Bookish orc wizards are wrong. WotC needs to tell those players that a halflings must be weak and an orc must be swinging a sword all the time.

That's really what this debate is about; somewhere out there is a player engaging in badwrongfun and we need the rules to put an end to this RIGHT NOW!

It is not about right or wrong, it is about what the purpose of the rules is. If the credo is that everyone must be able to anything, and rules should not set limits, then why the hell are are we playing a game where species and classes are predefined rule packages? The literal point of those is to set limits.

If we have splats, they should define and limit things. If we don't want that, then don't have splats, have freeform character building instead. Simple as that.

 

[Minigiant]

Quite frankly again having subspecies that are just +1 and species +2 to a Ability score is outdated design.

If Halflings are agile, make them agile. Don't just just +2 DEX because history since it doesn't reflect in game.

That's the inconsistency of sticking to tradition but changing mechanics.. You cant have normal people PCs and make +2 to Ability significant.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Quite frankly again having subspecies that are just +1 and species +2 to a Ability score is outdated design.

If Halflings are agile, make them agile. Don't just just +2 DEX because history since it doesn't reflect in game.

That's the inconsistency of sticking to tradition but changing mechanics.. You cant have normal people PCs and make +2 to Ability significant.

If ability scores are not significant and if being agile cannot be represented by high dexterity, then why the hell we have ability scores? If they cannot mechanically represent the fiction just get rid of them.

 

[FrozenNorth]

On the flip side, it is just hella weird that evey species is equally good at everything. Halflings are just as physically strong as humans and orcs, elves are no more agile than dwarves etc.

Disagree. Most NPC halflings aren’t Str-based fighters. When I DM, I can fill the world with NPCs that reflect my conception of how a race would implement the class.

Meanwhile, when I play, my halfling PC can be extraordinarily strong. There have always been individuals at the extreme ends of bell curves, and a world in which (for instance) you can’t play a male witch, is less realistic rather than more realistic than reality.

Meanwhile, it is just “hella weird” that dwarves are more willing to listen to a drow (racial bonus +2 Cha) than another dwarf (racial penalty -2 Cha).