D&D 4E No evil gods in 4e?

[Moon-Lancer]

Actually, if there's any god who should be connected to the Primordials, it's the Raven Queen IMO. And no, that doesn't mean she should be evil or chaotic evil; it's because death is a concept that should be so timeless it predates even the gods.

poor Dream ;p

 

[Counterspin]

Cirno is showing us why the alignment system in general should go. People who believe that if their character's mindset isn't explicitly listed in the corebooks, you can't play that character.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

poor Dream ;p

Lol, I am tempted to put the Endless into one of my D&D games

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I am happy that chaotic neutral is gone as an excuse for behaving like an idiot.

I am less happy that lawful neutral is gone and i am sad that there is no true neutral.

there was a thin line between lawful evil and neutral evil, and a not so thin line between chaotic good and neutral good (although hard to explain and really depending on how you look at it)

 

[theeo123]

Also, can someone who thinks he or she doesn't like the alignment system tell me where the line is between neutral good and chaotic good? Lawful evil and neutral evil? I have a hard time drawing those lines definitively.

Okay I've been playing D&D for FAR FAR to long (1st edition) I was also the Vice president of my high schools Gaming Club back in the day, an officially sponsored school club for RPG's Part of my job was introducing new players to the games we played, and I Had to go over this question quite a bit. I'm by no means an expert, and alignment truthfully is a very subjective thing, but this is about how I usually explained it

To me, it helps to think of your alignment as two separate portions ,law Vs chaos & Evil Vs Good even though we say "lawful good" as if it's one alignment it's still a couple different things.

To me the difference between neutral good and chaotic good for instance is a slight but important one

Neutral good, doesn't care either way weather a given action is lawful or not, as long as it's for the good of the people, he'll work within the system if he can, but has no qualms about working outside the system. Some people even considered this the "Vulcan" alignment, nto caring about law or chaos, simply using whatever method is most efficient to work for the overall good.

Chaotic good, to me, is more like an Eco terrorist. someone who is (or at least believes they are) doing good. but goes out of their way, to spit in the face of "the system" choosing a more straightforward, approach, and by causing disruption, damage, turmoil etc not only helps his cause, but hurts the Established Rule-makers in the process.


Lawful evil and neutral evil
Again same way. AEG's "Evil" source book has a very nice definition of this, again with neutrality being someone who doesn't care either way, a self centered person, worrying only about their own needs.

Lawful evil, Well, imagine a toy manufacturer, who specifically uses shoddy cheap goods, or dangerous ones, to increase profit, he's working within the bounds of the law, but using them to his best advantage, finding loopholes to suit his needs. He is lawful, he follows the law to the letter, but he uses the law to accomplish evil deeds (there's a number of modern day Corporations that are probably in this category)

A lot of it boils down to the characters basic worldview, more than his actions. Even lawful characters are capable of breaking the law, But chaotic characters go out of their way to do it. and Neutral characters, don't give a crap one way or the other.

 

[Thasmodious]

Oh NOES! I can't put LE next to the name of my villian? Wizards has completely removed evil tyrants from 4e! 4e is teh_devil!

You know, a smiley would go really well right here.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

There's a huge difference between a chaotic good rebel who wants to overthrow the government and a neutral good cleric who just tries to heal the people living there.

Yes, absolutely.

But why is it necessary to pigeonhole them into a type with two little letters?

 

[Mouseferatu]

That's not the answer, and I very clearly stated why that's not the answer.

No, you stated why you think it's not the answer. I'm disagreeing.

There's a huge difference between a chaotic good rebel who wants to overthrow the government and a neutral good cleric who just tries to heal the people living there.

A difference in personality, yes. In methods, yes. It alignment, not necessarily, not if alignment is broad enough that both qualify as "good."

There's a huge difference between a simple murderer and an evil tyrant.

See above.

And Vhailor is the very freaking avatar of Lawful Neutral. He *does not work* as "unaligned," "evil," or "good."

Sure he does. You only feel he doesn't because he's been listed as LN in prior editions. Or are you honestly trying to tell me that such a character would have been inconceivable in a game that didn't have the previous nine alignments? Because I'll tell you something; I've played a "letter of the law over all other considerations, be they good or evil" character before--in Vampire, which has no alignments at all.

Then why have it? If you want to get rid of alignment, then DO IT!

Why have character gender? Why decide if your character is shy or outgoing? Why decide if he's a joker or has no sense of humor? Why decide if he comes from a noble family or grew up on the streets?

Because it's part of role-playing, and part of defining the character. Some games use alignment for part of that; some don't. But it's never been meant as either a straightjacket or the full definition of the character; it's just one personality aspect or motivation among many.

No, the 4e alignment system breaks down if you make a three dimensional character.

Really? So none of the characters in the game I've been playing for months, and none of the characters I've envisioned for later play, are three-dimensional? Thanks so much for telling me.

Alignment may not have to describe every aspect, but it has to describe SOME of them.

And it does, if you choose an alignment. It just doesn't describe the parts you seem to want it to.

And if you don't think it does, make everyone unaligned. That's what it's for--people who don't gravitate toward one of the four extremes.

Yes, but I think most everyone would agree that political parties are stupid

So use religion. The point is, even people who share a specific belief or subset of beliefs can differ in almost every way imaginable, and not all of them define themselves by that shared belief.

 

[Deep Blue 9000]

First of all, you don't really seem to like any changes 4e is making, so why bother? I mean, seriously.

: /

Is there some quota of 4e a person has to agree with before they can post?

Second of all. Through the years, even though it hasn't been intended, many players have felt alignment like a straight-jacket. Making broader (generally) alignments will thus not serve as a straight-jacket, but instead as the opposite.

Except that is not what they are doing. Unaligned does not encompass LN, for example.

And think about players constrained by alignment. I know every time I've seen this happen it's been because of LG, which they still have in 4e!

 

[ruemere]

Weird. Having read this thread I have had a strong feeling of deja vu.

Warhammer FRP and its alignment system is very similar to 4E's:

4E version / WFRP version / WFRP explanation

Lawful Good / Law
Laws are here to make everyone here feel good. Let's be nice to each other and let's obey the laws. Oh, and we can punish the wicked the way we want (provided there is a law for that).

Good / Good
We're nice (not necessarily nice to everyone and not necessarily law-abiding). Oh yes, and we may be racist.

Unaligned / Neutral
Just the usual guys, minding their own business, leading small lives. No antics, no heroics, just the livin'

Evil / Evil
Oh yes, we want more from life, we deserve it, cause we're better. And let's go get it now, rules and others be damned. But while at getting us stuff, we can still be nice and sometimes even nice.

Chaotic Evil / Chaos
We have a mission, we're not gonna be persuaded away from it, and you're not gonna like it.


Pretty similar and worked in WFRP (1st edition, anyway). And being good did not preclude you from being insane xenophobic racist wardancer capable of slitting throats of anyone trespassing into your beloved forest. Your good just does not necessarily mean everyone else's good

regards,
Ruemere