No More 15-Minute Adventuring Day: Campsites

[prosfilaes]

And I think you are missing my point: In order for magic to be "mysterious" (whatever that means - see below) it doesn't have to be mysterious to the players. That's simply a matter of roleplaying and presentation.

My statement was a reply to:

But I digress. The issue I see is that players with support roles use their OMG powers at the wrong time. Instead of seeing if the mundane methods work first they rely on the supernatural.. leading to a less mystifying experience of magic at the game table

I don't think it's possible for standard D&D (or GURPS) magic to be a mystifying experience at the game table. They're simply too cut and dried.

Magic being mysterious to people in the setting is completely setting-dependent.

To most people, but to wizards, no matter how you chrome it, it's got to come off a bit like stage magic. It may impress the plebes, it may even take quite a bit of practice and skill, but it's basically doing the same rote tricks over and over again. To a wizard's adventuring party, there's nothing mysterious about the dozenth fireball to go wizzing over their heads.

Anyway, I think you're actually using the wrong term in your argument. You seem to be concerned about predictability, not mysteriousness.

I'm concerned about whether magic feels like operating simple reliable machinery or putting your soul on the line wrestling with creatures from the beyond--or at least something situation-dependent and hard to handle and predict.

If you want unpredictability, all it takes is a (skill) check to determine if (and possibly to what degree) a spellcasting attempt is successful.

Not for a truly mysterious casting. A skill check makes it less reliable, but not really less predictable. Something like good old-school 2ed wild magic is a start, where things can happen that are truly unexpected when casting a spell.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Maybe I used the wrong term there.

Spells in fiction are often powerful exertions of arcane/divine over the normal rules of the world. The author times the use of spells appropriate to the plot line and the results are rarely occurring, mythic events.

In RPGs, the timing of the use of the spells is handed over to the player. In earlier editions the power was retained and restrictions places on the timing {has to be memorized, uses components, etc..} to try and keep spells in the niche they hold in fiction.

As the editions wore on, the power of spells dropped along with the restrictions of use. Now in 4e a decent level Mage can cast Magic Missile all day long... but now the spell is roughly the equivalent of a highly accurate crossbow. No longer can a Mage cast Wish and most of the other spells have been nerfed from their original form.
Along the way you get more predictability and less *cool*
This is 'as intended', as most players get very upset over a character whose shtick is randomly nerfed and unreliable. Its hard to be heroic if you have a chance of your attack fizzling 'just because'.
On the other hand, its hard to be heroic when your attacks deal wimpy damage but can be used every round.

The 15 minute day comes from the play style in which Spells were seen as required to survive since they were the most powerful tool the players had. 4E worked to get rid of that by leveling the powers {literally} and for the most part succeeded.

However some DMs will still run level+5 encounters instead of realizing that the new math balances at level equivalent very nicely {level -2 or -4 for Solos} That leads to the Nova response from the players.. or maybe it derives from the players going Nova and losing the feel of a challenge.
Either way, the answer is to lower the threat of the individual encounter and expand the threat of the adventuring day.

Now if we are talking 5e.. perhaps Spells need to shift back into the less often used/more powerful realm. Perhaps using reserve spells as a jump off point and build a system where the players are encouraged to hold off until the critical plot point where they can emulate the Mages of fiction and save the day.


IMHO, of course

 

[UngeheuerLich]

There is always the problem of a 15 min adventuring day, if you Play D&D as a board game and not a role playing game. It always has been this way.

Our ADnD DM just said: "you are not tired"

and to adress the OP:
campsites like inns on your road are a good idea. Safe spots in dungeons too...
but if PC´s are creative in making their own campsites will cause some plausibility problems... the good old: "you are not tired" still works well here...

 

[prosfilaes]

There is always the problem of a 15 min adventuring day, if you Play D&D as a board game and not a role playing game. It always has been this way.

Our ADnD DM just said: "you are not tired"

It's a roleplaying game, not a board game. In a board game, if you can gain an advantage by sacrificing a character, you do so. In a roleplaying game, you need to take into account that characters generally don't want to die. My character may not be tired, but if he's out of spells, and he's safer staying put then going on, then realistic roleplaying would have him staying put.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yes, and there is no problem here... but often a lot of people die, if heroes are taking too many rests!