D&D General No More Baldur's Gate From Larion: Team Is 'Elated'

Team pivoting to next big release instead.

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Bad news for Baldur's Gate fans--It seems that Larion is out of the Baldur's Gate business. CEO Swen Vicke has announced that Baldur's Gate 3 is not getting any expansions, DLC, or a sequel. Patches and fixes will still continue, however, including cross-platform mod support.

"Because of all the success the obvious thing would have been to do a DLC, so we started on one. We started even thinking about BG4. But we hadn’t really had closure on BG3 yet and just to jump forward on something new felt wrong. We had also spent a whole bunch of time converting the system into a video game and we wanted to do new things. There are a lot of constraints on making D&D, and 5th Edition is not an easy system to put into a video game. We had all these ideas of new combat we wanted to try out and they were not compatible."
-Swen Vicke​

Vicke confirmed this at a talk at the Game Developers Conference, and said that Larion Studios wanted to make its own new content rather than license IP from another company.

He also clarified that a Baldur's Gate 4 was still possible, but that if it happened it would not be made by Larion. Larion is already working on its next big release.

According to IGN, Larion has started work on some BG3 DLC, but it was cancelled.

"You could see the team was doing it because everyone felt like we had to do it, but it wasn’t really coming from the heart, and we’re very much a studio from the heart. It’s what gotten us into misery and it’s also been the reasons for our success."
-Swen Vicke​

According to Vicke, when the BG3 team found out that they would not be making more Baldur's Gate content, they were 'elated'.

“I thought they were going to be angry at me because I just couldn’t muster the energy. I saw so many elated faces, which I didn’t expect, and I could tell they shared the same feelings, so we were all aligned with one another. And I’ve had so many developers come to me after and say, ‘Thank god.'"
-Swen Vicke​

 

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Ondath

Hero
An interesting comment from Swen:

View attachment 352888

Oh boy. Somehow, I don't think WotC is going to understand their importance or treat them with respect in the longer run. And the fact that he's being so clear that WotC owns them helps make clear why Larian probably out of working with WotC or on BG.

As for the next game, Swen has been somewhat inconsistent, but if we look only at more recent thing he's said, rather than including stuff from before BG3 came out, he does seem to be suggesting it will be a new IP and will "dwarf BG3".
Is there any chance WotC could get another company to make D&D games using the BG3 engine - similar to how Obsidian made Neverwinter Nights 2 and Fallout New Vegas?

I feel like Tactical Adventures (the small French company that made Solasta) could make a decent 5E/OneD&D game if given the opportunity.
 

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Cergorach

The Laughing One
Well clearly this is all Wizards of the Coast's fault. There's no other possible explanation.
Maybe they just want to cash in on the BG3's success with their own IP. Speculation: WotC/Hasbro might have set unreasonable demands on Larian for additional DLC/BG4 with the success of BG3. Or Larian just sees WotC/Hasbro as an undependable business partner that will willy nilly kill projects or fire the people you've been doing business with for years and you have to 'train' a new batch...

@Ruin Explorer Are you sure it was written by a Dutch Guy, I can only find Belgians... Also DOS2 was a HUGE success for such a small indie company at the time. BG3 of course blows DOS2 out of the water on the success scale. Why wouldn't Larian continue with the EA model? It gets them money over the whole development cycle, it gets them success level feedback, and free advertising. EA is like Kickstarter++... And I think a "DOS3: by the people who made Baldur's Gate 3" is going to pull a TON of people over the line of trying something they are not familiar with.
 

Not surprising, licensed RPGs do tend to go around to different developers. D&D hasn't really gotten consistently good video games (sometimes they're great like BG3, but often they aren't), because of how Hasbro & WotC tend to handle things.

Also remember how the "sequel" to Planescape: Torment wasn't even Planescape or D&D, but Numenera instead?

Maybe the Cyberpunk franchise is in a good place, based on how CD Projekt Red and the independent R Talsorian Games work together.
 

Can I ask what you saw in early access that made it so different from the final game (examples)
You're asking me to remember stuff from the beta of a game 4 years ago, which changed repeatedly and rapidly over that period, so I hope you will be okay with me being vague - people have been finding screenshots from their own EA periods and being astonished by what's in them lol.

But some examples:

1) There was an encounter with a dying Mind Flayer not long after you got off the ship - it's still there - but it had a bunch of fisherfolk around it, being mind controlled for no clear reason. In very early EA, there were only lose/lose outcomes to this. Whatever you did, something horrific happened, usually you having to kill all the fisherfolk, regardless of whether you stopped them being mind-controlled. And the companion characters had some pretty weird and callous comments about it. This left a pretty horrific impression, and not in a good way - it operated as a sort of mission statement - "Everyone is bad and everything will end badly", especially as it was essentially the first non-companion encounter outside the Nautiloid. Over the course of EA, they toned this down twice, first making it so there were some grey outcomes, but they required multiple DC15+ saves/checks to get (not easy at L1/2) - and at this point you couldn't save game in dialogue, note - but it was still pretty bad. Then by lowering the DCs but you still had a lot of rolls. Eventually they removed it, and put the fisherfolk down the map, but still had a pretty hostile encounter with them, then they removed that too, because it really wasn't serving any purpose.

2) The Nautiloid itself used to be longer and more detailed, and also used to be much more likely to involve you being forced to a bunch of innocent mind-controlled people by accidentally or even unavoidably aggro'ing them, which felt pretty bad. When they shortened this to make restarting less tedious, they took I think all of that out (NB knocking people out was either not in the game or so well hidden almost no-one knew about it, at this point), and now you only fight devils (or optionally a couple of Intellect Devourers).

3) All the companions were bigger jerks. Shadowheart was intensely rude and unpleasant (not "sassy" as I have seen people try to retcon - just unpleasant and sneering like she is to Lae'zel early on), and the only way to get past this was to act like she was your boss and you were the world's most brown-nosing employee. I hate to use the term "simp" but basically unless you took that attitude on literally everything she said, she acted like she hated you. You could do a bunch of things to help her, but unless you also went along with 100% of her nonsense, she hated you. They dialled this back over time, particularly in one big patch were they added reactivity to you saving her from the pod - that was the big turn-around. Gale was prissier and more superior. Lae'zel was... mostly the same but had no context - you couldn't get nearly as much info about WHY she was behaving like this. Karlach wasn't in the game for a lot of EA, and only meetable not possible to recruit for the rest - but she was pretty different - a lot angrier and bitterer - like her darkest moments in the real game were basically the norm (a lot of that is from data-mining to be fair). Wyll was a different character with a different, and frankly grosser and weirder story, where he was the one lying to people, and Mizora was kidnapped (?!?!?!). Astarion was similar to Lae'zel in that he changed less, but lacked context for his behaviour. He was also more aggressive and callous, and didn't have anywhere near the number of funny lines.

4) All the NPCs were bigger jerks. This is a bit hazier but virtually every major NPC gave you a harder time, through a combination of higher DCs on any checks you needed to make, more checks, and just being less pleasant when you helped them, with a lot of "Hmph I didn't ask for your help"-type stuff - I think even Zevlor gave you quite a lot of attitude back then.

5) Again more hazy but a lot of quests and situations which have a positive outcome now simply didn't have one back then. They just had different bad or at best grey endings, and again due to the DCs for checks being higher, and there being more checks, even those tended to be more difficult to get.

6) Mechanics-wise, NPC enemies and spells in general tended to do a ton more with creating surfaces (fire, ice, water, etc.) - like stuff now where you only get a surface effect with special items or interactions with objects in the world, spells just did and NPC enemies often had grenades, arrows, barrels, etc. that made surfaces - more so than they do even on Tactician now. Compounding this, the surface effects were much more powerful - I forget how much damage "Burning" did, for example, but it was definitely a lot more than 1d4/round lasting for at most 2 rounds (assuming you got off the surface). The actual D&D rules were significantly less well-implemented (you can sort of trace this from the patch notes at least), and they tended to get overwhelmed by the wild plethora of surface effects that went off everywhere, like even blood was a major issue! Larian got such negative feedback here that they started toning it down pretty rapidly here. NPCs also tended to have more "hard" CC spells and higher damage spells at lower levels, like it seemed like Larian weren't quite ready for how few HP player characters had in D&D - the game wasn't exactly harder though because the surface effects were much easier for a player to exploit than NPCs. People complained a lot that it felt like DOS3, gameplay-wise, not BG3, and they were right to.

7) "Daisy" vs The Guardian - I won't go into too much detail because I'm not sure how much of a spoiler thread this is, but there was a totally different approach to the tadpoles, which seemed to be more like "Daisy" (who you created, like you create the Guardian now, but they asked "who do you desire" instead of "who protects you" or w/e) was trying to tempt and manipulate you into using and where using any at all was a big deal (also the tadpole powers were class-based), and it seems like there was a separate unseen voice trying to convince you not to (who in retrospect might have been Orpheus). Overall this was the one bit which wasn't more grimdark, but it was pretty different and seemed to be pointing to a later game where the main question would be "What will you do for power/to win?", which is definitely not where the game actually went in the release version. The whole song "Down by the river" is for/about Daisy, note. Also you gained power with the tadpole by using its power, not eating other tadpoles.

I think that's enough for now lol.
 


Zardnaar

Legend
Seen the drama online thought it was mostly projection . But the larian guy has actually made some not so veiled comments about WotC.

More money now/stock prices seem more important than 5 years down the track.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Game of the year. 10+ Millions of sales. Beloved by its player base. A license to print money......

Now maker of said game sounds pissed off, doesn't make make another game nor a DLC.....

Sounds like some heads will roll somewhere because of staggering incompetence.

Unlikely its executive related.

Averaged out its "only" 20 million or less a year. 6-8 years of development.

Larian made a AAA game but they're not a AAA studio if that makes any sense.
 


@Ruin Explorer Are you sure it was written by a Dutch Guy, I can only find Belgians... Also DOS2 was a HUGE success for such a small indie company at the time. BG3 of course blows DOS2 out of the water on the success scale. Why wouldn't Larian continue with the EA model? It gets them money over the whole development cycle, it gets them success level feedback, and free advertising. EA is like Kickstarter++... And I think a "DOS3: by the people who made Baldur's Gate 3" is going to pull a TON of people over the line of trying something they are not familiar with.
LOL. I am well aware they're Belgian - I'm talking about the vibe - there's completely un-funny brand of "humour" that Dutch people seem to specialize in that DOS1 absolutely has in spades.
Why wouldn't Larian continue with the EA model?
Because it attracts criticism (it did with BG3 even), and creates a situation where, if they don't listen to feedback, which may be difficult to implement, they will get criticised even more, and potentially bad press. Further, it extends, not shortens, the development period, because you have to keep putting out playable builds every couple of months (which is no joke), and Swen has specifically said he wants a shorter development period.
And I think a "DOS3: by the people who made Baldur's Gate 3" is going to pull a TON of people over the line of trying something they are not familiar with.
It will, and that's going to have a huge backlash, because an awful lot of those people will absolutely HATE how the DOS games play, and how grimdark and unpleasant they are. It's like if you had a restaurant, let's call it Rivellon, which strictly sold really harshly flavoured offal-based cuisine, like liver, heart, brain and kidney-based dishes, with powerfully bitter sauces and raw veg and you had a loyal clientele, but you started another restaurant, which, for want of a better word, sold "normal" food, which we'll call The Gate, and you got 5x as many customers there. So then you open up a new Rivellon restaurant, and advertise it as "From the chef who brought you The Gate!" - will you get a lot of people trying it? Yes. Will you get a lot of very unhappy customers? Also yes. Will you get a few converts? Sure. But overall people are going to be pretty mad with you if you sell a DOS3 game that is really like DOS1/2 and you advertise it on the basis of "If you like BG3, you'll like this!" even if it's just an implication.
 

Larian made a AAA game but they're not a AAA studio if that makes any sense.
It doesn't make sense and it's also not true.

Larian absolutely are an AAA studio, and made an AAA game. They have 400 people working for them, and they spent an extraordinary amount of money making the game. There's no definition of AAA studio they don't meet. What you seem to be confused by is that unlike most AAAs, they aren't owned by a separate publisher. Also they weren't an AAA studio until after they made enough money from DOS2 that they could start upstaffing.

But he's implying heads will roll at WotC, not Larian.
 

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