D&D 4E No more reprints of the 4E core books?

[Imaro]

3.5 IS compatible with 3.0.

However, let's do a history check here. 3.5 was -marketed- as a replacement for 3.0. It was marketed as a complete revision of the product line.

In fact, the books even say 'revised edition' on them.

3.5 WAS being sold as... well the .5 of 3ed edition. Wziards did not attempt any duplicity in that manner, they said flat out, they're putting out a revised edition, and future material will be based solely on that revised edition, and not 3.0.

Essentials is not.

I hear a lot of 'the sky is falling' but I don't see any -evidence- of it. Instead I see people going 'Companies lie all the time! So therefore when Wizards says it is not a complete revision it must therefore be a complete revision!' based on the fact that years before 3.5 came out they said to someone internally that 3.5 wouldn't be a revision....

...meaning you're being paranoid and not logical.

When Wizards wants to release 4.5, you will KNOW it because they'll probably call it 4.5, and they'll announce it a year in advance and start showcasing it at conventions and begin marketting hype.... exactly like they always have done because they are a successful company and such things lead to successful launches of flagship products.

Hell, Dark Sun's getting more of that treatment than Essentials... maybe Dark Sun is 4.5!

Oh, wait, Magic the Gathering's latest set has more hype than Essentials, maybe Magic the Gathering's 4.5!

Rubbish arguments. Come with something other than fear and loathing... something -substantial-, something -concrete-. Some piece of marketing we can look at and go 'yes, that DOES sound like it.' Your collective paranoia is NOT evidence of anything more than an opportunity to make it big in the tinfoil hat business.

Would you happen to have a citation where anyone from WotC said essentials is definitely not a revision, because I haven't seen this. The only thing I've seen is that "essentials" will be compatible with older books.

As far as 3.0 to 3.5 marketing... yeah, I'm sure one of the lessons they learned was that the way the change was marketed didn't go over very well.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

So which is it...
WotC was being dishonest in their advertisement for 3.5 and thus could be just as dishonest with 4e?

Well, it depends. If you've already made up your mind that WotC is a single entity that consistently makes the same words mean the same thing in statements issued 10 years apart under different teams, then sure, oh yeah, you really prooved your point, all the people who are wrong on the Internet are sure gonna stop being wrong now, thanks to your timely research.

If you judge the validity of statements based on the trustworthiness of those making them, less so.

Could you please show me the Errata documents from the late 3.0 era showing how they already nerfed buff spells, or fixed weapon size rules, or modded damage reduction?

All signs point that Essentials is a reprinting of the current rules, and a re-presentation of many early classes in a way that plays fine with the rules of the game, but have some concerns with how certain concepts will mesh. Psionic classes had the same issues. Yes, there is a concern there for some, but nothing says WotC is being deceptive, quite the opposite. They've implied the rulebooks will go out of print, explicitly stated the rules aren't changing, except in ways they were going to errata anyway.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Huh? Did you get an advance copy or something? Because otherwise, just like with 3.0 to 3.5 all you got is what they are telling you... how is this any different from that ad on their site?

What ad? That is explanatory text issued after the release of 3.5.

 

[MrMyth]

Huh? Did you get an advance copy or something? Because otherwise, just like with 3.0 to 3.5 all you got is what they are telling you... how is this any different from that ad on their site?

"This latest version of the rules... incorporates revisions and updates based on player feedback."

So, right up front, the 3.5 quote says they are changing the rules. It is being outright presented as an update and revision of the game. As a new version of the rules.

Not a new supplement, which is what Essentials is being presented out.

WotC has, up front, said that some errata will come out alongside it - mainly of things they were planning to change anyway.

I admit, they could be lying. The book could come out, and rather than races getting some additional options (which doesn't have to change anything for existing characters), and wizards having some encounter powers getting enhanced (which doesn't have to change anything for existing characters)... they could instead change core elements, hitpoints, proficiencies of several classes, change how numerous powers work for other classes, and force everyone with existing characters to update them to stay current.

But there seems to be absolutely nothing indicating that is going to happen.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Would you happen to have a citation where anyone from WotC said essentials is definitely not a revision, because I haven't seen this.

If I can do you promised to change your opinion and agree that all is hunky-dory in the D&D universe? What is the point otherwise? I know what this looks like. I'm reserving judgement until the books release.

 

[mudbunny]

Would you happen to have a citation where anyone from WotC said essentials is definitely not a revision, because I haven't seen this. The only thing I've seen is that "essentials" will be compatible with older books.

As far as 3.0 to 3.5 marketing... yeah, I'm sure one of the lessons they learned was that the way the change was marketed didn't go over very well.

Well, Bill Slavicsek said the following:

The Dungeons & Dragons Essentials products are fully compatible with the rest of the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game. The rules of the game are the same as those featured in the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide. The presentation is new, rewritten for clarity and friendliness. The format of the product is new, using boxed sets and digest-sized paperbacks instead of hardcover books. We’re incorporating any rules updates that have come along since the release of the new edition in 2008.

The classes provided in the Essentials products consist of new builds of old favorites, designed to provide great starting points, more variety, and to give us more creative space for future design. The warpriest, the new cleric build that I showed off last week, for example, can use powers and feats and magic items from any product published earlier in the edition, and clerics created with the Player's Handbook or with Divine Power (also just for example) can utilize material right out of the Essentials products. This isn’t all that different from us releasing Player's Handbook 2 or Player's Handbook 3. We just have a more specific set of goals in mind here than simply adding more material to the game.

The spin we’re putting on them is what makes these new products “Essentials.” We’re delegating these 10 products as “must-have” products for every retail outlet that carries the Dungeons & Dragons game. They form the foundation of the game moving forward and are designed to be the perfect way for new people to get into the game—thanks to the format, the price, and the approach to the class builds.

To further demonstrate the interchangeability of the classes, we’re going to include Player's Handbook classes alongside Heroes of the Fallen Lands classes in the special celebrity game event we’re running at Gen Con this year. Chris Perkins, Dungeon Master to the Stars, will host a game for such D&D superstars as R.A. Salvatore, Ed Greenwood, and Larry Elmore that we will record and make available for anyone who wasn’t able to attend the event.

What About Products After the Essentials?

Products coming out after the Essentials, including such exciting titles as Player’s Option: Heroes of Shadow, work with all Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game products. Just started with the Essentials? No problem! Add shadow-based powers to your storm warpriest with no fuss or bother. Got a battle cleric built with Player's Handbook and enhanced with Divine Power and a couple of feats from Essentials? No problem! It’s all D&D, so it’s all compatible! Everything we’re producing in 2011 and beyond works with both Essentials and non-Essentials products—because they all work together! They’re all Dungeons & Dragons!

Now, that isn't coming right out and saying "not a revision", but I think that it is pretty clear that it isn't.

Could you play 3.0 PCs with 3.5 PCs and not have any balance problems?? (Serious question, I never played 3.0)

 

[Charwoman Gene]

As far as 3.0 to 3.5 marketing... yeah, I'm sure one of the lessons they learned was that the way the change was marketed didn't go over very well.

So why do you think if they learned a lesson are they repeating the same tactics?

 

[jasonbostwick]

WotC has, up front, said that some errata will come out alongside it - mainly of things they were planning to change anyway.

I admit, they could be lying. The book could come out, and rather than races getting some additional options (which doesn't have to change anything for existing characters), and wizards having some encounter powers getting enhanced (which doesn't have to change anything for existing characters)... they could instead change core elements, hitpoints, proficiencies of several classes, change how numerous powers work for other classes, and force everyone with existing characters to update them to stay current.

But there seems to be absolutely nothing indicating that is going to happen.

As far as I can tell there is every indication to the contrary.

I don't really have time to go digging through twitter feeds, but I remember reading something from one of the designers that gave me the impression that the July Rules Updates were basically the set of Errata that were locked in as the Essentials version of the rules. The updates to Magic Missile somewhat confirm this.

So basically, beyond the NEW builds and NEW monsters, we already have the Essentials rule set - the alternative is some weird conspiracy where they're sitting on errata they've already made because it is so extreme that it could engender massive unrest if revealed too early.

 

[Stoat]

On the other hand, Skills & Powers was pretty widely considered to be "2.5", even though it was never marketed as such. If people has thought along those lines back then, Unearthed Arcana would have been considered 1.5.

I'm curious whether Skills & Powers was literally considered "2.5" back when it was released. I was only playing intermittently at the time, but I don't recall anything like that. I've always been under the impression that "2.5" was applied retroactively to Skills & Powers when 3.5 came out.

 

[Imaro]

What ad? That is explanatory text issued after the release of 3.5.

First off this is neither here nor there as far as my point.

Second... there's much more on the site that supports what I'm saying... as an example here's part of an interview on the WotC site...

WIZARDS: How vital is it for players to use this revised version if they have the 2000 release?
Skip: Frankly, two players could sit down at the game table with different versions of the books and play for hours without knowing they weren't using the same rules.
Andy: I think the revised core rules represent the best version of D&D to date, so I guess anyone who's interested in the best D&D experience available should see these books as "vital" for their game. Obviously, following products will rely on these books as well, so players looking to enjoy such products to their fullest extent will want the revised rulebooks on their shelves.​