D&D 4E No more reprints of the 4E core books?

[Solvarn]

"Is Essentials 4.5?" arguments need to be banned just like edition wars were. They're seriously crowding out discussions of matters of substance.

Go start your own forum dude, and you can decide what people post there and what is "of substance" and what isn't.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Go start your own forum dude, and you can decide what people post there and what is "of substance" and what isn't.

Or he can point out that this topic has become tedious, long, drawn out, and of rapidly diminishing value. I know I'm sick of it. Last time I looked there was only one guy this forum belonged to and it wasn't ANY of you, me, donAdam, or ExploderWizard. If Morrus feels like saying "no more of this" it's up to him. You guys can always create your own forum too you know. All the guy is doing is making a suggestion to management.

Though I'd say a PM to said management might work better (and then again maybe not, what do I know).

 

[Rex Blunder]

>"Is Essentials 4.5?" arguments need to be banned just like edition wars were.

Are you kidding? All these threads just contribute to the Spectacle! It's like watching 10 train wrecks at once!

 

[Philosopher]

There seems to be a common line of reasoning among many (or at least some) of those defending WotC. They point out that the nay-sayers are making wild speculations without evidence (a fair point regarding plenty of nay-sayers). Then they turn around and claim that it will all be okay once WotC reprints the PHB1 Fighter and Warlord in future books. I'm sorry, but is there any evidence of this?

Regarding whether Essentials is a revision/new edition, I'm reminded of the frog in boiling water. Boil a pot of water, put the frog in, and he'll jump out right away. But if you put the frog in a pot of room temperature water and slowly bring it to a boil, the frog will remain where it is even after the water begins boiling. In other words, because the change happened so slowly, it didn't notice any change - but a very significant change certainly took place.

WotC's current model is to slowly put out modifications over time. To those who have been playing 4e and keeping up with the updates, there's no big deal at all to the changes being made in Essentials - they're not even seen as changes at all. To those who don't play 4e, or who play with the core 3 and don't follow updates, this is a big change. The revision/new edition can sneak up on you like that, even though you cannot specify a particular point in time in which to say, "Before this point it's 4.0 and after this point it's 4.5." In that sense, it's much like an evolving species - the changes over a few generations are insignificant, but given enough time, you have a new species.

Disclaimer 1 - I am not claiming that Essentials is analogous to being put in a pot of boiling water. The point of the analogy is to draw attention to the difference between slow changes and sudden changes and how noticeable they are.

Disclaimer 2 - I am not taking a stand one way or the other on whether Essentials is 4.5, I am only noting that it may legitimately appear one way or the other depending on one's starting point. Imaro has correctly pointed out why WotC doesn't want to call it 4.5, but how they choose to market it is different from what it is.

 

[MrMyth]

They also never come out and say you have to buy the new rulebooks or need them in any way...

Andy: I think the revised core rules represent the best version of D&D to date, so I guess anyone who's interested in the best D&D experience available should see these books as "vital" for their game. Obviously, following products will rely on these books as well, so players looking to enjoy such products to their fullest extent will want the revised rulebooks on their shelves.

That... certainly seems to be saying that existing players should go out and buy these rules if they want to keep up with this version of the game.

Also to claim the rules in essentials haven't been revised is a little disingenuous at best... regardless of how it was done, they are not the same as the rules in the printed PHB 1 and we won't know to what extent more changes have been made until the essentials books are released.

Ok, here's where I think you may be going astray. I focused on the quote talking about 3.5 being a revision of the rules because that is what it was, at its core. There was a 3.5 Player's Handbook, and a 3.0 Player's Handbook, and thus one of them was a revised version of the other.

There is a 4E PHB, and there will be some 4E Essentials Books. They aren't a reprint of the previous book with updated rules. They aren't something that existing players need to pick up in order to remain current with the game. They are a book aimed at new players, with all the same core rules, and different (theoretically simpler) builds of the most iconic classes.

Look, I get that until we see the actual rules, I can't definitely prove to you that Essentials isn't going to blindly alter vast sweeping areas of the core rules. I can't prove that all future Wizards products won't completely ignore everything before Essentials.

Now, for those to be true, it would mean that what they have told us so far have been complete and outright lies. And it would probably be a bad business strategy, and it wouldn't make sense in the context of Essentials. So I'm doubtful.

Your counter seems to be that they said similar things when 3.5 came out. But they didn't, as we can see from the very quotes you've provided.

They've said that the two systems can work together. Now, I don't agree with that myself - but other people in this thread have said that they can, so maybe WotC wasn't entirely wrong on that account. But it certainly wasn't the same level of compatibility as between a core book and a supplement, which is basically what we have here for all existing gamers.

And in those same quotes, they are also being complete honest that 3.5 was a completely revision of the system, and that current players would need to buy it - to purchase new copies of books they already had - in order to remain current with the game and make use of future products.

Ok, I think at this point I'm just repeating myself endlessly, and I don't want to beat this into the ground too far. I'll concede to you, certainly, that until we see Essentials we don't know anything for sure.

But unless WotC reps are lying through their teeth - not just being optimistic, not just trying to spin things to sound good, but outright weaving complete and total lies - I really don't think there is anything to worry about for existing gamers.

 

[MrMyth]

There seems to be a common line of reasoning among many (or at least some) of those defending WotC. They point out that the nay-sayers are making wild speculations without evidence (a fair point regarding plenty of nay-sayers). Then they turn around and claim that it will all be okay once WotC reprints the PHB1 Fighter and Warlord in future books. I'm sorry, but is there any evidence of this?

No, not at all. I think those comments are just more speculation, like everything else.

For my money, I'd be very surprised if the PHB1 content of those classes gets reprinted in new future supplements. In fact, I'm downright positive it won't happen.

I suspect (assuming, again, that this rumor is true) that we will either just eventually see a reprint of the PHB that is up to date with errata... or they won't reprint anything, and players will either have to hunt down an existing copy or rely upon the DDI to get that info.

I mean, I could certainly be wrong on this. But that's my theory, at the least. Either the books stay in print, or they come out with revised versions of them, or the content gets consigned to DDI for new players. The idea that they will come out with "Martial Power 3" or something and just reprint PHB content... bleh, that sounds like a terrible idea in every possible way.

 

[Solvarn]

Or he can point out that this topic has become tedious, long, drawn out, and of rapidly diminishing value. I know I'm sick of it. Last time I looked there was only one guy this forum belonged to and it wasn't ANY of you, me, donAdam, or ExploderWizard. If Morrus feels like saying "no more of this" it's up to him. You guys can always create your own forum too you know. All the guy is doing is making a suggestion to management.

Though I'd say a PM to said management might work better (and then again maybe not, what do I know).

Yeah, my response was a bit rude, apologies. To be honest though, MORRUS kind of piled the wood on the fire with the splash on the welcome page this morning though about the whole unsubstantiated rumor thing.

I think there's a lot of people out there (not enough though apparently hence the change in the business model) that are pretty passionate about this stuff. I've been kind of wondering myself how they make a whole lot of money, I know that I don't really buy books anymore, just use DDI. If they could get to the point where someone could go to Wal-Mart and buy the Essentials box, I think that'd be good for the game.

There is a lot of stuff coming down the line with Insider. They may end up increasing the price a bit and expanding their offerings. We don't really have the whole picture I guess and that is part of the problem. I've enjoyed what's been put out so far for the most part, I guess I should just have a little more faith.

I look at the release schedule, and I don't really see much of anything I'm excited about slated for 2011 at all. I might be more prone to checking it out though since the books are cheaper. I like the hardcover books and they are great, but since I've had kids, I can't afford them anymore. There are a lot of people out there like that I think, or in the same situation.

I just wish I felt more confident that the type of content that I appreciate (non cookie-cutter classes) will continue to be provided. No one knows for sure really, probably not even the developers.

 

[IronWolf]

Y.... To be honest though, Eric kind of piled the wood on the fire with the splash on the welcome page this morning though about the whole unsubstantiated rumor thing.

I believe you mean Morrus....

 

[UngeheuerLich]

tip: convince your kids, that D&D is very uncool and you hate it...

then they will wish it for christmas, and then you win^^

 

[ggroy]

tip: convince your kids, that D&D is very uncool and you hate it...

then they will wish it for christmas, and then you win^^

Reverse psychology?